Instructor putting his students at risk?

[beasleym]

This is probably one of the best thought provoking questions posted here that I've read. In reality, this isn't just a scuba related question but one of leadership and managing situations. I'm retired now, but I spent a bunch of years as a manager, 15 years in leadership training with some nationally recognized awards, and lots of scars over the years.

That said here's my two cents:
1) The captain was in charge of the boat and, as stated was in charge - period. The key point is he assumes responsibility for the safety of everyone on board and represents the owner.
2) The instructor was in charge of the divers, but he too was under your direction.
3) You were responsible to the dive and by implication were responsible for the safety.

Here's a hard nut to swallow that I learned early on from one of the best managers I ever encountered. I was a manager, he was my manager, and a very senior manager walked in very angry while the two of us were talking privately. He threw a temper tantrum and was starting to shout. My manager stood up and told him to be quite. He went on to explain that at that volume all of the employees could hear and that as a manager he should be setting the example. He further explained to him that if continued we would likely have an upset staff and keeping that kind of employee was hard and they could go anywhere and probably find better pay. Fortunately big mouth calmed down. Afterward I said that was the most gutsy move I had seen. My manager responded that in every career the s**t could hit the fan and you could lose your job. At least doing the right thing you would be losing your job for the right reason. And he had lost jobs before for doing the right thing, but he had also gained a lot of respect. It's a lesson that's filed on the top shelf of my memory.

My opinion is that the captain should have never agreed to anything without your concurrence. Ditto the instructor. The best way to handle the situation would have been for all 3 of you to meet up front. The captain should have done this. You should have insisted on it. The instructor should have done it if no one else did. It's called communication and planning. Had that occurred then hopefully nothing would have happened. If anyone gave your crap then you should put it right back on them.

Faced with the situation I think you know what you would do next time.

As to berating the instructor in front of everyone - that's subject to debate. Assuming something like this situation occurred - personally, I would have done it for the learning of all. And remember diving can be a life or death situation. I would be very blunt, tell the captain and everyone that a dangerous situation had occurred and that he needed to convene everyone to make sure everyone was OK and that all of the details were known. If he didn't agree I would have done it myself and reported the situation to the owner. If the captain or instructor intervened I would have pointed out that if not for your quick actions the owner would be facing a very bad situation, as would the captain, and the instructor.

I would first have the diver that had the problem relate what happened. I would then chime in with my actions and observations. I would then do the same with the instructor. Keep a cool head and be analytical - yeah it's tough particularly with the adrenaline flowing. Wait til it subsides a little - one way is to take time to make sure the diver is OK and write down the details. If the instructor didn't own up to what you thought was right then don't challenge, simply state your case. That way everyone learns.

Lastly I would have written down exactly what happened and gotten the names and contacts of everyone under the guise of making sure the diver was OK. In reality it's for your protection as well in case the instructor, the captain, or the diver makes an issue of the situation. Remember the divers a witnesses and they are paying customers. Also, you can never tell with adrenaline running through the divers veins he may have suffered some injuries or perhaps claim that he did.

Would I have done this early when I much younger - not likely. Would I do it if I witnessed the situation now - you bet!

 

[Petert71]

Sidebar. We do negative entries on one particular site here all the time. When the tide turns, there is no other option but a ripping drift dive.

Fair point, we don't get to do too many drift dives where I am. I hadn't considered that.

beasleym, great post on leadership.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

As a shop owner, the heirarchy goes like this for us. I am the big boss. I am not on every boat, however. The captain is in charge of the vessel, travel to and from, and overall care of passengers. The DM is in charge of the dive. They are a pair, and equal in command. Apple and orange. They work together and would never have let this happen. The captain would never have agreed to anything without the consult of the dm.

Had the instructor insisted, he and his group could have left the boat and I would have returned the money. I never cause a scene in front of customers if I can possibly avoid that. Other paying customers do not go out on a boat to have to put up with drama. I talk quietly and firmly. I try to never raise my voice or call names. I lose credibility that way. On the other hand, I am firm and people know not to play with me or try to pull crap.

I had an instructor book the boat for students on an afternoon. I went down there just because I don't like that guy. I have fished his people out, sorted out his messes, and taken students he screwed up. He showed up with an advanced student group and OW 1 and 2 students. He was insisting that all have 3 tanks because they were doing a night dive too. I checked paperwork and had 3 tanks removed. He lost his mind. I calmly told him that open water students 1 and 2 could not dive after 4pm and they would not need the tanks. He yelled and screamed, threatened me and the captain. I calmy told him that I don't care who is is, that he may have title of MSDT, but he wasn't one, and he was no longer allowed on our boats. I did not get personal, which I would haved loved to do, I did not yell, which he deserved, nor did I try to make it public. He chose the public arena.

As a manager, this is touchy. You need to be firm and strong, but not make things an ordeal for the rest.

 

[TSandM]

I think the question of whether you discuss this with the instructor in front of his students or not is a good one.

The problem is that students don't know what they don't know; they have no database from which to judge the appropriateness of the actions or decisions of their instructor. If the instructor is doing something which is grossly unsafe (which in this case, he was, both from a planning and an execution standpoint) I think the students need to know that. Taking the instructor aside and quietly discussing this in private does not warn the students that they may need to be more cautious in blindly following this man's lead.

I know, had I been in your situation, it would have been quite painful, because I loathe confrontation. But I think I would have attempted a group debrief of the dive, and if the instructor were not willing to participate, I would have done it with the students; if he resisted that, I would simply have done it loudly and publicly, and made the statement that I had wanted to avoid doing that.

 

[tomfcrist]

This instructor obviously has no buisiness teaching....Personally I wouldnt let him back on my boat. Negitive entrys are common in some places, however i dont believe that these students have the proficiency to perform such a task. When I do negitive entries(every boat dive i do) I have no issues what so ever, mostly because my gear is squared away, and I'm properly weighted. Even after jumping in negitive i hover at the hangline and recheck all my gear.....In general, OW students and/or fresh cert OW divers just dont have the experiance level to accomplish such a task safely.

The Instructor had no control over his divers, and in turn put the DM in a hairy predicament. Total BS.

 

[Thiad]

I appreciate in the insight into why you'd jump negative. I've been trying to consider situations where that would be optimal, but come back to the same conclusion that it's not for an inexperienced diver - night, day, whenever.

I don't know how I'd have reacted in the same situation. Yet if you feel someone's life is in danger, it's not worth taking the high-road and staying out of it. I'd rather play the fool that stepped over the lines than be a mourner the day after explaining why I kept my mouth shut.

 

[beasleym]

OK - I'll go for three cents. Zendiver.3D's post was right on for the most part. As a business owner (and I have been one) it's a great response and just what should have happened. And relating a specific example tells me I would love to have her shop or use it any time.

But I only agreed with Zendiver up to a point. That point is the comment about being an ordeal to the rest. My point is that this was a perfect opportunity for everyone to learn something - most importantly the divers who didn't understand and were at risk. We can debate the best way, but I feel the students/divers really needed to benefit from the experience. I remember one early experience where I was briefing my 30-second partner about the fact I was using a combination octo backup reg. The captain chimed in with something to the effect that I was scaring the newbie; all that I said was that in an emergency I would pass him my primary and would go to my octo. I looked the captain in the eye and asked something to the effect would he rather have him scared at the surface or panicked if an emergency occurred? After the dive I gave the captain an earful personally and didn't dive with that outfit until ownership changed.

As I said earlier in my post, as a leader you want to be true to yourself and your followers. This is sometime contrary to business decisions as Zendiver's actions show by kicking the instructor off the boat. That's why they teach leadership training and business ethics. It isn't always easy or cut and dried and we aren't born with those inate skills. Each person needs to decide where they stand and, unfortunately, it's better to know where you stand before the s**** hits the fan.

As to drift dives, absolutely love them and have done many negative entries. I have never seen it done without the DM evaluating and asking whether everyone was comfortable ahead of time. That's good leadership and communication.

 

[theduckguru]

My mamma always used to ask me, "if everyone else jumped of a cliff would you?". To the OP, you jumped with them and would have been equally culpable had an accident occurred in my view. Part of your job is to manage risk. Just stating " guys I'm sitting this one out you are responsible" tends to have a sobering effect on some. Have more spine next time.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

OK - I'll go for three cents. Zendiver.3D's post was right on for the most part. As a business owner (and I have been one) it's a great response and just what should have happened. And relating a specific example tells me I would love to have her shop or use it any time.

But I only agreed with Zendiver up to a point. That point is the comment about being an ordeal to the rest. My point is that this was a perfect opportunity for everyone to learn something - most importantly the divers who didn't understand and were at risk. We can debate the best way, but I feel the students/divers really needed to benefit from the experience. I remember one early experience where I was briefing my 30-second partner about the fact I was using a combination octo backup reg. The captain chimed in with something to the effect that I was scaring the newbie; all that I said was that in an emergency I would pass him my primary and would go to my octo. I looked the captain in the eye and asked something to the effect would he rather have him scared at the surface or panicked if an emergency occurred? After the dive I gave the captain an earful personally and didn't dive with that outfit until ownership changed.

As I said earlier in my post, as a leader you want to be true to yourself and your followers. This is sometime contrary to business decisions as Zendiver's actions show by kicking the instructor off the boat. That's why they teach leadership training and business ethics. It isn't always easy or cut and dried and we aren't born with those inate skills. Each person needs to decide where they stand and, unfortunately, it's better to know where you stand before the s**** hits the fan.

As to drift dives, absolutely love them and have done many negative entries. I have never seen it done without the DM evaluating and asking whether everyone was comfortable ahead of time. That's good leadership and communication.

Thanks. I think we actually completely agree. I mean that I try to avoid a large drama scene and ordeal for those who are not part of the problem. I have boats which may have recreational divers, separate groups, and students with their instructor all on the same boat. I get the rec groups off first and then the students and instructors enter the water. If there is an issue with a group, I try to leave those not involved, out of it. They came to have a great day of diving, not to listen to a mess. But when a person is endangering others, there is a clear easy line for me. And I do not argue or squabble. You will run by my rules or you are welcome to play in someone else's playground. And I am a firm believer in debriefing the dive for the good of all. I just don't fight in front of others, if I can possibly avoid it.

This is always a hard. I've had divers separate from their buddy and just take off. The buddy surfaces, waits, signals, and is frantic. I find their bubbles and go get them. Then I simply tell them that due to their poor and dangerous decision making, they would not dive the next dive or off my boats ever again. Please take your money back. I want no part of it.
The dollar is hard to give away for any business owner, but sometimes, it is the very best choice. We are known for having dependable, safe boats, where you can guarantee that you will have a great time. You can also count on good dm's, strong captains, and good people. But to get those, you have to stand up with your principles and ethics gripped tightly in both hands.

 

[Peter Guy]

OP -- I don't know what I would have done had I been in your situation. I know what I have done in a similar situation and, quite frankly, regretted it because I believe it ended up in a dangerous situation that I could have prevented. As a result of that incident, I changed my ways and either won't work with certain people OR make sure they understand that IF I am responsible for (in my case) some students, I AM RESPONSIBLE and the students will do it "my way."

As a customer on a boat, I have ripped the DM for creating, what I believed to be, a dangerous atmosphere. You could have heard a pin drop at the end of my tirade towards the DM (who was an instructor) -- and when he tried to make a joke of the situation, I lit into him some more telling him that "Safety is NOT a laughing matter." (Note, the Dive Op was the same dive op where one of my best friends had gotten badly injured 2 weeks earlier (two+ years later she is still not 100% and probably never will be) -- while it was a true accident, a better and more diligent op could have prevented it.) What was very interesting in that situation was the other people on the boat, over the next several days, all thanked me for standing up for safe diving practices even though not one of them said a word at the time.

I think we, the instructor corps, do a disservice to our industry, our students and ourselves by not standing up, at the time, and saying "NO - DON'T DO THAT" when we see something that just shouldn't be done.

OP -- Thank You for standing up and saying "YOU SCREWED UP."