instructor course review - did you know...

[DonDon]

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[DonDon]

Did you know that when you take the PADI assistant instructor or instructor course, part of your grade rests upon selling? Specifically, as part of each lesson you are graded upon how you integrate selling dive trips, dive equipment and dive education. The reason given for the sales component is to support the dive shop and, i suppose, make you more competitive in getting a sales position within dive organizations.

I found this and the courses, to be a dissapointment as I was expecting content and information that would (somehow) make me a better diver (my main goal) and feel competent to be an instructor - neither of which I really felt were achieved. I did the course locally and I know there are others, locally, who (like me) don't always do all of their homework, so thought I'd post here where locals would see.

There are actually no points earned for selling anything during PADI IDC presentations, although depending on how your Course Director presented this information to you, I can see how you might perceive this. I have been a very active PADI Course Director for over 21 years now, and I still actively teach everything from PADI Open Water upward. Every Instructor in every training agency approaches their agency's material in their own unique way, and sometimes any agency's intentions can be misinterpreted by the student and/or by the teacher. I believe that all diver training agencies have at their core the same end goals, including the goal of keeping people in the sport.

Some of the other posts here do corroborate what I have found to be absolutely true, which is: that unless you 'promote' (the term that PADI utilizes) Equipment Ownership (PADI does not sell dive equipment), promote Continuing Education, and promote Dive Travel – it is unlikely that divers will undertake these pursuits on their own. In other words, it is less likely that the student diver will continue diving after graduating.

One of your duties as an instructor (and what the student diver expects) is for you to be a counsellor in these areas. As an example: when I undertook Tec diving (even though I was a very experienced CD at the time) I looked to my Tec trainers for Tec Continuing Education suggestions, Tec Equipment recommendations, and Tec travel opportunities. Furthermore, if your dive store is located in continental North America, it is likely that they depend on gear sales to keep afloat, even if it is just mask, fins, and snorkel. If you want a place to call home as an instructor, then you need to keep people diving through your store.

There are only a total of 3 points out of a possible 30 points that can be lost on a PADI classroom presentation if these concepts are not promoted. But lastly, don't forget that some of the reasons that you are an instructor today revolve around your instructors promoting these concepts to you in the first place. Don't let others leave a bad taste in your mouth my colleague – and instead find a way to incorporate these concepts into your own teaching in a classy way that you are comfortable with and that benefits your students.

 

[Thalassamania]

There are actually no points earned for selling anything during PADI IDC presentations, although depending on how your Course Director presented this information to you, I can see how you might perceive this. I have been a very active PADI Course Director for over 21 years now, and I still actively teach everything from PADI Open Water upward. Every Instructor in every training agency approaches their agency's material in their own unique way, and sometimes any agency's intentions can be misinterpreted by the student and/or by the teacher. I believe that all diver training agencies have at their core the same end goals, including the goal of keeping people in the sport.

What a bizarre rationalization. You keep people in the sport by providing adequate training so that they feel comfortable diving, not by sticking your hand out at every opportunity.

Some of the other posts here do corroborate what I have found to be absolutely true, which is: that unless you 'promote' (the term that PADI utilizes) Equipment Ownership (PADI does not sell dive equipment), promote Continuing Education, and promote Dive Travel – it is unlikely that divers will undertake these pursuits on their own. In other words, it is less likely that the student diver will continue diving after graduating.

The please explain how I have such a high retention rate (on the order of five to ten years minimum) without any such promotion?

One of your duties as an instructor (and what the student diver expects) is for you to be a counsellor in these areas. As an example: when I undertook Tec diving (even though I was a very experienced CD at the time) I looked to my Tec trainers for Tec Continuing Education suggestions, Tec Equipment recommendations, and Tec travel opportunities.

The conflict of interest is way too obvious. E.g., I don't buy my skis from from ski instructor.

Furthermore, if your dive store is located in continental North America, it is likely that they depend on gear sales to keep afloat, even if it is just mask, fins, and snorkel. If you want a place to call home as an instructor, then you need to keep people diving through your store.

If a dive shop is the home to your instructors it's no wonder that their industry half-life is on the order of two years.

There are only a total of 3 points out of a possible 30 points that can be lost on a PADI classroom presentation if these concepts are not promoted. But lastly, don't forget that some of the reasons that you are an instructor today revolve around your instructors promoting these concepts to you in the first place. Don't let others leave a bad taste in your mouth my colleague – and instead find a way to incorporate these concepts into your own teaching in a classy way that you are comfortable with and that benefits your students.

It shouldn't leave a bad taste in your mouth, it should turn your stomach. There is no "classy way" to betray your students' confidence and trust.

 

[oly5050user]

post removed

 

[oly5050user]

There are actually no points earned for selling anything during PADI IDC presentations, although depending on how your Course Director presented this information to you, I can see how you might perceive this. I have been a very active PADI Course Director for over 21 years now, and I still actively teach everything from PADI Open Water upward. Every Instructor in every training agency approaches their agency's material in their own unique way, and sometimes any agency's intentions can be misinterpreted by the student and/or by the teacher. I believe that all diver training agencies have at their core the same end goals, including the goal of keeping people in the sport.

PADI does not sell equipment! PADI sells diving and the experience that goes with it.Obviously gear ,education,travel are all a part of diving.

Some of the other posts here do corroborate what I have found to be absolutely true, which is: that unless you 'promote' (the term that PADI utilizes) Equipment Ownership (PADI does not sell dive equipment), promote Continuing n, and promote Dive Travel – it is unlikely that divers will undertake these pursuits on their own. In other words, it is less likely that the student diver will continue diving after graduating

.Absolutely correct. How are these students to be made aware that con ed is there available for them? That an entry ow course is not the end all of their diver education?

One of your duties as an instructor (and what the student diver expects) is for you to be a counsellor in these areas. As an example: when I undertook Tec diving (even though I was a very experienced CD at the time) I looked to my Tec trainers for Tec Continuing Education suggestions, Tec Equipment recommendations, and Tec travel opportunities. Furthermore, if your dive store is located in continental North America, it is likely that they depend on gear sales to keep afloat, even if it is just mask, fins, and snorkel. If you want a place to call home as an instructor, then you need to keep people diving through your store.

This is something I advise new instructors all the time. A part of their job is to find out what interests/goals a person has in diving and to assist them in what gear selections will work best for them at their level of diving..Not doing so means the instructor is not doing a complete job of assisting the student properly.

There are only a total of 3 points out of a possible 30 points that can be lost on a PADI classroom presentation if these concepts are not promoted. But lastly, don't forget that some of the reasons that you are an instructor today revolve around your instructors promoting these concepts to you in the first place. Don't let others leave a bad taste in your mouth my colleague – and instead find a way to incorporate these concepts into your own teaching in a classy way that you are comfortable with and that benefits your students.

During an IDC/IE an aspiring instructor is graded on a micro presentation.So these points are hit to ensure a proper grade.Are these points(con ed-gear ownership-travel) repeated on an on for every bullet point during an actual class presentation? Of course not. But use the concept of using the points during appropriate parts of a presentation to inform the student. If a diver just starting out does not have mentor,in this case the instructor,to assist them in gear selection or dive education(meaning dive opportunities) they drop out of diving.Excuses are usually "I have no one to dive with" or "I do not have any gear to dive with,and renting is a pain" or "I do not know WHERE to dive"..

All these excuses are answered in promoting con -ed. In a con- ed class you have other students at the same level and the opportunity to network with them exists to have people to dive with. That answers the "I have no one to dive with"

Promote gear ownership so that diving opportunities are there when available.Gear ownership also makes student diver more comfortable with proper fitting functional gear,rather than the usual unfamiliar, ill fitting,beat up rental gear.This answers "I do not have any gear to dive with".

Promote local and or travel to dive.Many people feel uncomfortable taking off on their own to locations they are unfamiliar with.Diving is supposed to be a shared experience with a buddy you are comfortable with.Why not promote local and or dive travel in your classes? This will answer the "I do not know WHERE to dive"..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hmmm ... Thal ... I'm no fan of the salesman approach to scuba instruction, but you took an interesting perspective on what the man said ...

What a bizarre rationalization. You keep people in the sport by providing adequate training so that they feel comfortable diving, not by sticking your hand out at every opportunity.

I didn't read it that way at all ... I read it to say that new divers look to their instructor for suggestions and recommendations. I have found that to be generally true in all areas he mentioned. I'll mention another ... finding a club or other "circle" of potential dive buddies. That was, for me, the hardest part of getting started. My dive instructor recommended a dive club, and took me to a monthly meeting of the one he was a member of. Not surprisingly, I joined. Turned out to not be the right club for me, but that wasn't his fault.

I don't believe in "pushing" sales ... either gear or con-ed ... but I do think there's a right way for an instructor to take a counselling role in helping a new diver formulate some ideas about how to maintain an active role in diving.

It's not an "either-or" ... it's a matter of degree and appropriateness.

The please explain how I have such a high retention rate (on the order of five to ten years minimum) without any such promotion?

That's an easy one ... you teach people who require scuba diving as part of their career choice. Furthermore, you have gone to great pains to tell us that you require specific gear for your students. So please ... don't pretend you don't push gear sales ... by specifying exactly what you require your students to have, you certainly do.

The conflict of interest is way too obvious. E.g., I don't buy my skis from from ski instructor.

When I was a ski instructor, I had a great many students ask me what skis they should have. And although they didn't purchase them from me, quite a few of them purchase skis based on my recommendations.

If a dive shop is the home to your instructors it's no wonder that their industry half-life is on the order of two years.

I think the two main reasons for that are (1) the high cost of scuba diving as a recreational activity and (2) the fact that the typical OW graduate hasn't yet developed an adequate comfort level to be able to do it on their own. Most people who drop out simply don't see the point in paying big bucks to do something they're not comfortable doing. Or, as one senior instructor I know once put it ... most divers learn just enough in OW to scare the crap outta themselves ...

It shouldn't leave a bad taste in your mouth, it should turn your stomach. There is no "classy way" to betray your students' confidence and trust.

I'm not a salesman ... and I have no desire to BE a salesman ... which is one major reason why I chose the independent instructor route. However, I have no problem with making gear recommendations to my students. I don't feel that's betraying them at all ... if anything, I feel it's helping them make more informed purchasing decisions. What I WON'T do is steer them in the direction of something because I would profit from it ... and the one time it ever left a bad taste in my mouth is when the LDS owner I sent them to ripped off one of my students. It was the last time I ever did business with that shop.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

I actually don't have any problem with instructors pushing CE classes OR recommending gear purchases, so long as the classes they are pushing are worth taking, and the gear they are pushing is recommended with the student's benefit in mind, and not the shop's.

OW certainly is not the end of what a diver ought to know (whether it should be or not is a discussion for another thread) and making that clear to folks, and laying out their options for further education and training, to me is a GOOD thing for an instructor to do. Let the student know you're still interested in working with them, rather than having them feel that they finished their course and they're on their own. I was very happy to sign up for Con Ed after my OW class, at least until it began to dawn on me that I wasn't really learning very much . . . but that doesn't make it wrong to recommend classes that are good ones.

And as far as gear goes, I'm glad they encouraged me to buy mine out of OW. Yes, I bought a lot of things I replaced in short order, and no, they didn't necessarily make their recommendations based on what I would do best to have (although, by their lights, what they recommended wasn't bad) but it got me diving. I have a problem with shops pushing their high-end items because the manufacturers insist on it (does anybody really NEED an i3?) and selling beginner divers their most expensive regulators, but encouraging people to buy gear is not a bad thing.

 

[DaleC]

If gear mentoring is an official part of instructing is there a dedicated component of instructor training designated towards learning the full width and breadth of diving gear, the pros and cons of each, and appropriate applications? Seeing as someone can become an instructor in about 100 dives, all with the same shop, where does this repository of knowledge come from?

I wouldn't object to instructors making gear recommendations if I didn't talk to so many that knew less about gear than I do. I'm only trained to AOW but I can navigate through most of the gear out there and troubleshoot the pros and cons of each. I can't tell you how many times I just bite my tongue when I hear an instructor or store staff telling someone something that is just plain off the wall.

 

[DCBC]

I believe it is an instructor's function to act as an information resource to his/her students. This does not extend to promoting the sale of diving equipment or travel. It does extend to recommending safe, properly fitted, with well-maintained equipment, but this is not restricted to "new equipment" in-which the instructor receives a commission.

Although some certification organizations claim that they are not in the business of selling equipment, or dive travel, a closer examination will reveal that a percentage of their income is directly attributed to this. I believe that it's difficult for such an agency to claim that they don't have a conflict of interest in this area.

This is compounded by other agencies not allowing independent instructors and requiring instructors to have an affiliation to a LDS. It seems that some agencies seem to be focused on training instructors to service the diving industry rather than the students that they teach.

In no way is this wrong or dishonest if the instructor declares his position to the student, as some students may feel that the instructor's sole interest is in diving education and that it doesn't extend to their pocketbook.

 

[Slamfire]

I think the two main reasons for that are (1) the high cost of scuba diving as a recreational activity...

Promote gear ownership so that diving opportunities are there when available.Gear ownership also makes student diver more comfortable with proper fitting functional gear,rather than the usual unfamiliar, ill fitting,beat up rental gear.This answers "I do not have any gear to dive with".

I have a AOW coworker that routinely asks me about details of my weekend dives. She's manifested many times that she'd love to go back to diving but she doesn't because of the high cost of acquiring equipment. She's just finding it hard to come by $5,000 to $8,000 to get fully geared. She's got other priorities right now.

I told her I didn't spend anywhere near that amount of money. But I'm a bad example because I "stole" a LOT of my gear from my dad. On the other hand, someone like Dale might be a better example. I bet that knowing what he knows now, Dale could scrounge up a decent dive kit for much, much less. I know I could if I had to. The problem is that she's been educated that this is life support equipment and that it's only safe to use it if it was purchased from a LDS. Just take a look at the back cover of every issue of Dive Training magazine.

Are there risks with buying used equipment. Of course, but that doesn't make it useless. If you buy used equipment, examine it and service it properly, cautiously test it in a controlled environment, I'm sure you can manage the risks to tolerable levels.

So, when compared to Dale, my friend's exposure to mainstream agency business models, instructors and LDS, has effectively become a hindrance preventing her from diving. She's got people to dive with, I've repeatedly stated that she's more than welcome to join me for a dive. She's got the desire and inclination, the training (hopefully), the sites, but not the moolah to go through the traditional channels.

Once you procure your equipment, diving is not a very expensive activity. In fact, if you take out the cost of equipment, there's not too many hobbies out there that are as cheap as diving.