Instruction question: to spin or not to spin

[rjack321]

Yes, it does.

How does that change what you do next?

It may change the pattern/technique you use to find the line. Or how much you let off the safety spool in any given direction before concluding that you need a new direction/attempt.

 

[TSandM]

I don't think it changes your next actions much (I don't even see it changing the pattern I use for search, as that would be mostly predicated on the shape of the tunnel where I got into trouble). But it changes the final lesson a little bit. With spinning, the lesson is, "No matter how disoriented you get, you can find the line, but it may take you a long time." Without spinning, the lesson is, "Store as much information as you can about where you are, so it's available to help you get back to the line, but recognize that even with that, once the lights are out, it's not easy to get back."

 

[Dive-aholic]

I think that is my real question. From an educational point of view, what does spinning add to the lesson? What skill does the diver learn and practice that is not practiced without the spin?

Andy said earlier (and he is right--it was his thread that inspired this one) that he spins in wreck diving to make it harder. It makes it harder to find the line, but are the skills any harder? Don't you still exactly do the same thing, only without the chance to think about your orientation?

Thinking about your orientation, the passage, and the line is a key element for this skill the way I teach. I stress to my students from the beginning that learning the cave is the most important thing. The line is there to get us out but dependance on it isn't good. They should know the approximate width of the passage and knot their lines to help measure it even in zero visibility. And when they do their line search, do it in a spoke pattern. Evebtually they will find it this way, even if they can't swim a straight line with their eyes closed, which many can't. Spinning completely contradicts everything i teach about SA and learning the cave.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Spinning completely contradicts everything i teach about SA and learning the cave.

Agreed.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

During the first lost line drill, I didn't spin the student. He spun himself when trying to locate a tie-off point and still had directional awareness to proceed toward the novice line in the ballroom. I tried to fake him out by letting him read the previous post here on SB as to where I would begin the drill, but instead, I commenced the drill within sight of the line. As I produced the blackout mask, he took one last look at the cave and had an excellent idea of where the line was at all times during his systematic search.

When I was spun during my first lost line drill in intro to cave, I still knew where the line was in relation to my orientation. Remember as a kid, you often knew which way you were facing with your eyes closed on the Sit and Spin toy? I recall thinking the line was to my right after being spun and then feeling the downward slope of the cave and the very slight flow to support the correctness of that decision.

If we had to postulate a theory on the validity of spinning, I would bet that even if a diver is spun during cave and wreck training, that a good number of students would still have a decent guess as to their orientation and would also pick up on subtle environmental cues as an aid to their search.

I'm not sure that spinning causes confusion or simply presents an added challenge to one's ability to maintain directional and situational awareness. For those divers with a natural sense of direction, it may merely be a way to test their sense of awareness. For those divers with a naturally poor sense of directional awareness, it may indeed create confusion.

In fairness to both those with a keen sense of direction and those who don't have that ability, as a reward to good situational awareness, I think Rob's opinion and methodologies are sound. However, I also don't think that spinning is so stressful and problematic that it should even be a standards consideration. I think part of the fun of teaching and learning is that instructors can play with different scenarios, have some fun with students by messing with them in safe, interesting and challenging ways and see the way students solve problems whatever is thrown at them. Part of the fun of being a student is not knowing what games your instructor will play with you and the feelings of accomplishment and confidence one gets from being able to meet any challenge.

If we take diver training so seriously all the time and constantly try to find ways to remove "stress on the student" we remove more of the ways both educators and students get to have fun. As kids, we didn't all enjoy the same games. As adults, we don't all enjoy the same games either. I thought spinning in my cave class was fun. I know others might not. I try to do both to students. Some may find the challenge fun. Others might not. But, I don't think we should continue to reduce the options instructors have to make classes interesting and rewarding in regard to fun and education.

Some instructors spin. Some don't. Some students think spinning is cool. Some don't. Since both methods have been producing well-trained cave divers for decades, I think it really is not an issue that needs a decision either way.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I was spun in Intro and not spun in Cave. In my opinion, it does not make a difference.

1. If the instructor spinning you does not also move and rotate, the location of the instructor becomes a reference point for you.

2. The rock you are led to is also a reference point and once you do a short 360 degree search to locate it, the spinning is a moot issue.

3. If there is any flow at all in the cave, it won't matter whether you are spun or not, assuming you have even minimal SA.

4. Same thing in a small passage - even with no flow, spun or not, it won't take long to figure out the axis of the tunnel and then execute a plan to search perpendicular to that axis.

In both Intro and Cave classes I asked the instrutor (different instructors) whether they wanted me to to assume I had no clue where the line was and start a methodical search based on that assumption, or just start the search straight towards where I felt the line was at. In both cases they said start in the direction you think the line is in and in all of the drills I found the line in a matter of a few minutes.

Oddly enough, one thing I keep hearing from divers recounting their experience is that the difficult part is often doing a good tie off in the dark, and in that regard building experience diving with a blacked out mask, doing tie offs, etc before you ever show up for class would help a lot.

I think what is often lost in the concept of doing a lost line drill is consideration of waht is the real intent.

If the intent is to sharpen a student's SA and reward them for good SA, then you want to do it in an area with lots of cues, and debriefthe students on what cues they used and observed and point out ones they may have missed or failed to use. Then progress to drills in areas with fewer cues. That is actual instruction rather than just chekcing off demonstated skills. Spin or not spin does not matter if the diver's SA is good.

If the intent is to impress upon the diver the potential danger of being lost off the line, then you need to do the drill in a large room with very few environmental cues (no flow, few features or a very chaotic topography with misleading features, line buried in sand, multiple lines with the potential to find the wrong one, etc and, a lack of convenient tie offs.)

Both have their place and in both cases, spinning should not make a difference. If it does, I'd lean toward the view that maybe this diver lacks the neccesary SA to dive safely.

 

[TSandM]

If we had to postulate a theory on the validity of spinning, I would bet that even if a diver is spun during cave and wreck training, that a good number of students would still have a decent guess as to their orientation and would also pick up on subtle environmental cues as an aid to their search.

1. If the instructor spinning you does not also move and rotate, the location of the instructor becomes a reference point for you.

2. The rock you are led to is also a reference point and once you do a short 360 degree search to locate it, the spinning is a moot issue.

3. If there is any flow at all in the cave, it won't matter whether you are spun or not, assuming you have even minimal SA.

4. Same thing in a small passage - even with no flow, spun or not, it won't take long to figure out the axis of the tunnel and then execute a plan to search perpendicular to that axis.

I read these statements and reflect on the enormous difference between my classes in MX and my classes in Florida. In MX, you often have no flow and NO depth gradient. Rooms are very large, sometimes both broad AND tall. And, when Danny did the lost line with me, he didn't put me on a rock. He turned the lights off in an area that was pure, deep silt, with a rock which had been about five feet in front of me when the lights went out . . . but which I never found.

I think there are probably different ways to do a lot of skills, but I really like John's original question, which was what the underlying lesson you are trying to teach the student really IS with the drill. I think different instructors might answer that question differently, and therefore choose different ways to set up the exercise.

 

[rjack321]

And when they do their line search, do it in a spoke pattern. Evebtually they will find it this way, even if they can't swim a straight line with their eyes closed, which many can't.

Just spoke? Why? Many passages are better searched in other ways (looping along the floor and over the ceiling for instance).

Oddly enough, one thing I keep hearing from divers recounting their experience is that the difficult part is often doing a good tie off in the dark, and in that regard building experience diving with a blacked out mask, doing tie offs, etc before you ever show up for class would help a lot.

Agree, as well as attempting to gauge distanced travelled by counting knots in your safety spool - its alot harder than you think and you typically haven't gone nearly as far as you think you have.

If the intent is to impress upon the diver the potential danger of being lost off the line, then you need to do the drill in a large room with very few environmental cues (no flow, few features or a very chaotic topography with misleading features, line buried in sand, multiple lines with the potential to find the wrong one, etc and, a lack of convenient tie offs.)

I did my lost line drills just behind the sign in upstream carwash. Which has small rocks interspersed with stalagmites on a silty floor, its lumpy but otherwise at a consistent 40ft, no discernable flow, sporadic pillars to run into etc. There's only one line, your primary, the mainline is further back. Primaries are generally laid about 3ft off the floor from stalagmite to stalagmite so a poor arm sweep can fail to catch it (although I don't know of anyone actually going completely underneath in a lost line drill). The "chamber of horrors" room is at least 100ft wide and 20ft tall.

I was not spun. I was taken off the line, mask on at the time and left heading roughly 80deg from the line near some rocks (poor tieoffs). Maybe ~18ft away from line. My instructor let go of my arm and then fairly promptly shut off my primary light. I was not given a blackout mask as there's really no light here, although I was asked to keep my eyes closed just in case he had to deploy a backup light to check on me more closely.

 

[ucfdiver]

In my experience, if you're in a real silt out, you see it coming at the very least, seconds in advance and know to start getting near the line. The worst I've had was a small passage where my buddies argon bottle got tangled behind me, and the passage was siphoning so I got somewhat blindsided. A 30 second pause (I grabbed the ceiling to avoid "drifting") and viz was back up to a few ft, the line was quickly found, and we were on our way. It was easy to find it because I had seen passages like this before, and knew how fast they could get nasty, so I was much closer to the line than in let's say, the gallery or pothole line.

Here's an example video I took last weekend-
Minor siltout... on Vimeo

You can see that even in what most would consider a "complete silt out", there's still 2-3ft viz other than around the 40 second mark where it goes down a bit. That's quite a bit of viz in a small passage, especially with even mediocre line and situational awareness. Furthermore, we knew before going down this passage what we were getting into, so you can see that we return to a completely full stage bottle as a "safety".

I don't believe that spinning a student simulates a real life scenario, and if it does, there's more important issues to deal with other than lost line drills. I also don't believe it's an entirely bad thing, either. Both methods prove the point that the only good way to survive a silt out is to know it's coming. I took the lost line drill as more of a lesson on "here's why you don't get yourself into this situation" rather than "here's how to get out".

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

You can see that even in what most would consider a "complete silt out", there's still 2-3ft viz other than around the 40 second mark where it goes down a bit.

How do you know thats what most people consider a complete silt out?