Instruction question: to spin or not to spin

[gander]

I haven't been cave diving long, but I can partially see the argument for spinning or not. I think it depends alot on the comfort of the student. If the student remains calms and simply follows the procedures regardless of the failures thrown at him/her, then spinning really doesn't do anything (other than prove that in that specific location it took them x minutes to find the line). For other students, I can see where it improves confidence that they would be able to work through the situation (and may help them with the importance of situational awareness).

The fact is that there are caves where no amount of spinning / training / etc will help you find the line. The fact is that there are some caves that if you truly became disoriented you will most likely die in a true zero vis situation. Alternately, regardless being taught the LLD with or without spinning, you will probably spend the rest of your life looking for the line. Hopefully, there are other factors to help you find it (flow, restrictions, etc.).

The cave that comes to mind was essentially a very large room that went several hundred feet back (and at some points very deep). The walls / ceiling had such percolation that something was constantly falling on your head (or back). The line (old) would have been extremely challenging to find (even when just getting off of it). The only true hope is to find a wall and attempt to swim in a circle until you accidentally came across the line (by knowing your depth when you entered) and hope you find a glow as you reach the entrance. When I dove it, the vis was poor and we sure didn't hurt the vis (except for percolation) and the glow was barely visible from the line.

In conclusion, I agree there is no right or wrong. For some students it makes sense to spin (just like the same student may need to do 100 jumps to become proficient). Other students will methodically go through the process and will eventually find the line.

 

[Meister481]

Once again we come to the ambiguous region of instructor discretion. While it seems that some do and some don't, I think the point is to make sure the student learns the lesson that the line is their life, as well as ensure they have the skill to find it.

Having completed the training with a spin, It really wasn't an issue. Found the line with no trouble and the box was checked. I've had the pleasure to help with a couple cave classes after I was certed, and they were all so different.

One guy (My Favorite) didn't spin, but lead the diver to a place where the line was extremely hard to find, or in a gap that was easy to miss. The object was to try to get the student to miss the line so they would appreciate it more. He admitted that the drill went too well for the student and it would be redone. On the third time we went to a spot in Morrison where the rocks were too flat to tie in so the student had to set an anchor point, and the line was tucked under the sand. He got it, but he respected the difficulty of the task.

IMO you can achieve the same goal and degree of difficulty by choosing a place that allows the diver to challenge themselves to find the line. Disorientation occurs naturally in a blacked out environment, so the spin isn't necessary. That same instructor has people swear that he spun them, but he never does. The combination of a difficult tie off and an odd line placement will make it difficult enough.

A different instructor would take the students to a large bedding plane and let them loose to scurry about until they found the line. Effective way to teach the drill its self, but doesn't disorient them enough due to flow and line position. If they had to do the same drill in a no flow cave they would be challenged a bit more.

As long as the student learns to respect the line and knows the proper sequence for line drills without panic, mission accomplished.

 

[Doc Harry]

I think if you're doing a lost-line drill in a cave, the answer is a resounding No! unless you can spin without tearing up the place.

In open water, I think spinning is a great idea, if you're not going to damage the environment or really stir up the mud.

The process of searching when you have no idea of the location of the line is a valuable experience. The anxiety that comes with not finding the line right away is also a valuable experience in perserverence.

 

[rjack321]

I think if you're doing a lost-line drill in a cave, the answer is a resounding No! unless you can spin without tearing up the place.

In open water, I think spinning is a great idea, if you're not going to damage the environment or really stir up the mud.

The process of searching when you have no idea of the location of the line is a valuable experience. The anxiety that comes with not finding the line right away is also a valuable experience in perserverence.

Who would do a student's lost line drill in OW? I have done them several times and only once was not in a cave (that was actually a dry land run with a blindfold and earmuffs on so I couldn't orient to nearby cars or people).

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Tomorrow, my apprentice cave student is wrapping up his open water and cavern drills with the following challenge in Ginnie's Ballroom before we begin training in the caves:

If I sucker him into following me around the bend into the "cave" within the ballroom without deploying a guideline from the novice line, he'll find himself in the corner in a blacked out mask and he'll need to find the line in the middle of the cavern. I won't spin him, but he'll have the worst case challenge of having to find his way out of the nightmare of obstacles and turns far from a guideline. It should be interesting. The point of the exercise will be how deceptively problematic that little look around the corner could become when we do not follow safe cave protocols.

The lost line drill will immediately transition into a lost buddy search once he reaches the main line as if he found clear water by regaining his mask. When the lost buddy is located, the buddy will be a terrified frozen diver on the line. Once the frozen buddy is encouraged to move, the team will be in an out of gas exit (buddy out) that will take them through the restriction near the top of the cavern. The buddy will then become a panicked diver on the long hose and his terror will result in disabled primary lights and disabled back-up lights. Once the buddy is calmed, the team will continue out in a no visibility (blacked out mask) gas sharing exit.

We lost a day of training due to the student's drysuit requiring repair. It should be interesting to see how it all plays out. If the student does well, we'll be back on schedule and then we can become more systematic about drills in the caves, developing cave conservation skills by reducing the need for tactics such as the "pull and glide" in place of smart use of cave features and propulsion techniques, and moving into more complex navigation.

In this class, I'm going to give him at least one easy chance to find a guideline in a cave and I'm going to spin him at another opportunity. I have a "logbook" for the student to evaluate his performance while recording his dives as well as to evaluate his perception of my performance. I'm going to ask him which lost line drill was most educational and why?

I decided to start asking students about what skills and drills worked best for them to determine how I may better teach those drills in the future.

 

[ptyx]

I'm not a cave diver, and I have a stupid question: why not do both?

From the posts above, it seems to me like spinning is best to teach calm under pressure and systematic search patterns, and no spinning the most appropriate way to teach situational awareness, mental cave mapping and and 'smart' search strategies.

Sounds like different exercises to me (although equally scary).

 

[Keith & Sharon]

Eventually my instructor was able to impress on me that a critical skill is taking the time to make a decision about the most likely location of the line and acting accordingly. That meant thinking about my body orientation, my previous direction of travel, and the location of the line when I had last seen it.

Spinning the student removes that learning. You have no choice but to strike out blindly. A lost line drill of that kind does not teach a critical skill and in fact teaches the opposite.

It is true that a diver may indeed become disoriented and will be unable to make that decision. In that case, the diver has simply lost a step in the process. There is no benefit to training that way because there is no additional skill gained by being disoriented.

John, I completed intro last year and from my perspective, I disagree that spinning causes the student to strike out blindly. I completed my lost line drill in the gallery at Ginnie below the lips (Allen-it was not at the Henkle on a trust-me dive).

I was handed the black out mask just out of the lips and was led around with a mild spin and placed on a rock in the gallery. First I tied off to the rock and then determined direction of flow. I knew I had just come out of the lips so I knew main line was half way up the wall to the left with exiting flow. Based on flow, last known location, line observation during entry, I was able to find the line without much issue.

If I was able to simply look around, know exact placement of main line and then place the black out mask on, I believe the critical skills would not be utilized. Knowing is half the battle.

Keith
Opinions stated above are mine and you can't have them.

 

[TSandM]

Keith, that's one of the differences between Florida and Mexico. In MX, you can rarely use flow as any navigational aid at all.

Richard, although I think you need to be able to find the line and get out no matter what, I think the unspun drill is enough to do that. BECAUSE one is likely to screw it up and take forever to find the line, one has three solid lessons: One, don't wander off the line, because even if you think you know where it is, it can be hard to find; two, if you persist in a methodical fashion, even if you are thoroughly lost and disoriented, you WILL find the line (this was Danny's bottom line on it); and three, don't screw up the viz or you're going to be in a situation you don't want to be in. No spinning needed, and all lessons learned.

 

[AndyNZ]

You need to be able to do both. I can see a reasonable argument for both spinning and not.

Some context to John's original post, I think the thread he is referring to is one where I was picking the brains of cave instructors on how they conduct lost line drills - I was sucking informatkion for improving how I teach wreck penetration.

II am in two minds on the spin vs. no spin. It depends on what the lesson is you are trying to acheive.

If the lesson is "don't lose the line, it will take you time and gas to find it" then spinning has a certain advantage.

If the lesson is "the line is findable if you have an awareness of your environment" then spinning is less so.

I tend to agree, both are valuable lessons. The way I now teach lost line drills for wreck penetration is with a spin (during practice dives) to make it harder, then with no spin to enable them to understand the implications of not observing their environment.

 

[Fox-Cousteau]

John, I completed intro last year and from my perspective, I disagree that spinning causes the student to strike out blindly. I completed my lost line drill in the gallery at Ginnie below the lips (Allen-it was not at the Henkle on a trust-me dive).
Keith
Opinions stated above are mine and you can't have them.

Keith and I had the same instructor for Cavern then Cave (we did not take the certs together)

2 observations:
Re spinning or not: from a developmental perspective, I suggest students do the drill once without spinning, experience success, then again with spinning. Of all the skills required for cavern and Cave, lost line is my weakest. :depressed:

Re lost line drill: Every time a Cavern or Cave diver dives they should do bubble check and "S" drills with their partner. Here is my point (directed to "experienced" cavers especially)

When was the last time you did a lost line practice and how often do you practice this "life saving" skill? (did I just hear a bunch of :shocked2: "oops" or did I confuse that with your "I don't need to do that").