Innovation in diving

[boulderjohn]

I firmly believe in innovation. Looking for better ways to do the things I do has been a character trait of mine all my life. I deplore the idea that we need to do things the way they have always been done just because they have always been done that way.

On the other hand, there is always a reason for doing things the way we customarily do them, and the wise innovator examines those reasons carefully before going about innovating. If the reasons are not that good, and a different way looks like it might be better, then it is time to try it. If the reasons are good ones, then it would be foolish to do something that has been shown to be a mistake in the past.

Doing something differently because you don't know any better is not innovation.

 

[gianaameri]

Agreed. A quick Google search reveals that exact phrase - "longest sub-aquatic cave system in Europe" appears on only one indexed page on the Internet. Coincidentally enough that same page doesn't name the cave, just like gianaameri won't.

Troll it is.

-Adrian

Tony Chaney said I made a "piss-poor decision" - but he cannot articulate why.

HIGHwing is on about rebreathers and functional safety which has nothing to do with either my dive which I cited or the Spiveys fatal dive.

Then you (and others) show up and start calling me names.

I am a cave diver and I dive and how and where is all in my forum (no trolls allowed!).

A cave line is designed and laid to allow for an exit from the cave in zero visibility. It can and is used to make entries in zero visibility. Following that line in and out is what allows a trained cave diver - with or without functioning electronics - to exit the cave.

Lacking cave training, as in this incident, the above cannot be done in safety.

 

[ajduplessis]

"Piss-poor" dicision is an understatement and put very politely. Do you actually hold a cave certification? The junk you are spitting suggests otherwise.

 

[nimoh]

I think a cave diver trying to convince other cave divers that they are a cave diver would not choose to instruct them on what a cave line is

 

[Omisson]

Tony Chaney said I made a "piss-poor decision" - but he cannot articulate why.

HIGHwing is on about rebreathers and functional safety which has nothing to do with either my dive which I cited or the Spiveys fatal dive.

Herein lies the problem.

Nowhere in your post do you indicate you consulted a dive table or did runtime gas mix analysis after ditching the rebreather.

Unless your cave is so shallow as to rack up NO deco or loading problems with your purported multiple "stage" dives ( I guess the equivalent of no interval multi levels with successively shorter traverses)... How could you have known you were safely within No Deco limits... Or if you had deco how much to do?

Without a timer and math formula or table which includes the gas mix, there is no safe on the fly" way to evaluate your CNS clock, how many OTUs you racked up - or even if you were becoming NO2 narcotic.

Looking quickly at your penetrations - if you weren't "flying" (thus defeating the exploration portion alleged) you were scooterring at a fairly slow pace. Given the successive penetration distances coupled with return times- unless the cave was less than 80 feet deep (unlikely for the "longest sub aquatic cave system in europe") within 35 minutes you began to incur deco on air or using a safe Eanx 32 -80 foot depth) 43 minutes or Eanx 36 in 46 minutes. If you stayed say - 1 hour at 80 feet you'd need 30 mins of deco time...

So either you omitted a major detail or the story's a fabrication... But according to the info the Mallorca caves off Spain in the western Mediterreanean (the longest sub aquatic caves in Europe) average about 28 meters- 91 feet or the Sardinian Caves blue Marino which are over 300 feet deep.... So it can't be those....

 

[gianaameri]

Herein lies the problem.

Nowhere in your post do you indicate you consulted a dive table or did runtime gas mix analysis after ditching the rebreather.

Unless your cave is so shallow as to rack up NO deco or loading problems with your purported multiple "stage" dives ( I guess the equivalent of no interval multi levels with successively shorter traverses)... How could you have known you were safely within No Deco limits... Or if you had deco how much to do?

Without a timer and math formula or table which includes the gas mix, there is no safe on the fly" way to evaluate your CNS clock, how many OTUs you racked up - or even if you were becoming NO2 narcotic.

Looking quickly at your penetrations - if you weren't "flying" (thus defeating the exploration portion alleged) you were scooterring at a fairly slow pace. Given the successive penetration distances coupled with return times- unless the cave was less than 80 feet deep (unlikely for the "longest sub aquatic cave system in europe") within 35 minutes you began to incur deco on air or using a safe Eanx 32 -80 foot depth) 43 minutes or Eanx 36 in 46 minutes. If you stayed say - 1 hour at 80 feet you'd need 30 mins of deco time...

So either you omitted a major detail or the story's a fabrication... But according to the info the Mallorca caves off Spain in the western Mediterreanean (the longest sub aquatic caves in Europe) average about 28 meters- 91 feet or the Sardinian Caves blue Marino which are over 300 feet deep.... So it can't be those....

N32, average depth 12 meters, max. depth 18 meters for the run I did. Air consumption 70 bar from each of 18 ltr. side-mount tank.

 

[Omisson]

So let me get this straight- you penetrated 1300 feet (400 meters) at Mallorca, and DID NOT get below 60 feet depth (18M). Ok which cave was that? Garthos goes to 30m within 750 feet of penetration. BMW to 30m right after the bell cave (500' feet of penetration) Houses of the Holy? 26m after 1000 feet penetration, s Cave, 20m, Es Colmer 50m, swiss cheese 23m...

Again I am assuming thats where you are diving because you said its the longest cave system in Europe, of course you may mean something else.

The rest of the caverns and caves in Mallorca, as I understand it, are considered advanced recreational caverns... under 8m deep and with well visible entrances and exits....

---------- Post added January 6th, 2014 at 09:02 PM ----------

Lets assume you have a healthy SAC rate of 22 liters/min (.75 cu/ft for us imperial guys) and twinset 18L tanks as you claim, (22/18=1.2222) yields us 1.222 bar per minute. 70 bar used in each tank means 57 minutes of run time for each tank, with a total dive time of 114 minutes. You say your average depth was 12 meters (40 feet), 18 meter (60 feet) low point.

I always calculate the deepest depth for conservativism, which means you blew a no deco dive after 90 minutes by over 24 minutes. Looking at a the m value there for safety we theoretically should use 16m (52.5 feet). So quick consult a dive table for EANX32 and you blew no deco by 4 minutes (110 minutes 50-55 feet).

It is only if we accept ALL of your dive at 12 meters (40 feet) that you could potentially be safe (according to say a PADI dive table) .

HOWEVER, most tec divers subscribe to the values created out of V-Planner for dive plans- which says even at this 12metere (40') assumption, this is a 1 minute Deco dive and those who use the VPMB model consider it a 2 minute deco stop dive.

I concede that a one or two minute deco isnt huge- but you had no TIMER - had you stayed 10 more minutes you'd have been SCREWED without doing deco. To let your run time go over an hour would likely incur deco. You had NO IDEA how long you ultimately were down there.

So you asked the question what foolish mistake did you make? Simple you either exceeded no deco or just barely escaped it. Thank Neptune you didnt get bent.... it would have been a valuable lesson on why you should dive with a depth gauge and bottom timer....

Dan-O

 

[Captain Bil]

....or he made the dive only in his imagination, the same place any and all of his certs reside. This troll isn't a diver of any type.

Sent from behind a pint of Guinness.

 

[gianaameri]

So let me get this straight- you penetrated 1300 feet (400 meters) at Mallorca, and DID NOT get below 60 feet depth (18M). Ok which cave was that? Garthos goes to 30m within 750 feet of penetration. BMW to 30m right after the bell cave (500' feet of penetration) Houses of the Holy? 26m after 1000 feet penetration, s Cave, 20m, Es Colmer 50m, swiss cheese 23m...

Again I am assuming thats where you are diving because you said its the longest cave system in Europe, of course you may mean something else.

The rest of the caverns and caves in Mallorca, as I understand it, are considered advanced recreational caverns... under 8m deep and with well visible entrances and exits....

---------- Post added January 6th, 2014 at 09:02 PM ----------

Lets assume you have a healthy SAC rate of 22 liters/min (.75 cu/ft for us imperial guys) and twinset 18L tanks as you claim, (22/18=1.2222) yields us 1.222 bar per minute. 70 bar used in each tank means 57 minutes of run time for each tank, with a total dive time of 114 minutes. You say your average depth was 12 meters (40 feet), 18 meter (60 feet) low point.

I always calculate the deepest depth for conservativism, which means you blew a no deco dive after 90 minutes by over 24 minutes. Looking at a the m value there for safety we theoretically should use 16m (52.5 feet). So quick consult a dive table for EANX32 and you blew no deco by 4 minutes (110 minutes 50-55 feet).

It is only if we accept ALL of your dive at 12 meters (40 feet) that you could potentially be safe (according to say a PADI dive table) .

HOWEVER, most tec divers subscribe to the values created out of V-Planner for dive plans- which says even at this 12metere (40') assumption, this is a 1 minute Deco dive and those who use the VPMB model consider it a 2 minute deco stop dive.

I concede that a one or two minute deco isnt huge- but you had no TIMER - had you stayed 10 more minutes you'd have been SCREWED without doing deco. To let your run time go over an hour would likely incur deco. You had NO IDEA how long you ultimately were down there.

So you asked the question what foolish mistake did you make? Simple you either exceeded no deco or just barely escaped it. Thank Neptune you didnt get bent.... it would have been a valuable lesson on why you should dive with a depth gauge and bottom timer....

Dan-O

You guessed my SAC rate correctly (it is 21.83), but you forgot that I was on scooter (so you should lower it at least to 17.39).

As to deco, we cave divers (GUE included) blow another Scuba 101 rule when we cave dive.

In Scuba 101 we are taught not to "yo-yo" dive, but when we dive in a cave (at least the caves I dive) forget "square profiles."

There is a lot of depth changes (i.e. "yo-yo" diving).

I have done the same run (i.e. same routine in the same cave following the same lines...) with Dive Computer many times, with and without scooter, and on N32 or rebreather with 0.7 Setpoint - no deco (on rebreather dives up to 3 hours long hitting that particular cave max. depth of about 22 meters resulting in maybe 14 meters average depth... no deco requirements).

So, deco is definitely not an issue (to tec diving cave standards, not PADI...) with N32 (or rebreather) and average depth of 12 meters in that cave for that run (having said that I am not sure you'd be able to understand what I am talking about if all your training and diving is PADI based, that is your approach is plain vanilla recreational).

I'd like to hear from Tony Chaney though who is a tec cave diver (is he???) why exactly my decision was a "piss-poor decision."

 

[Omisson]

You guessed my SAC rate correctly (it is 21.83), but you forgot that I was on scooter (so you should lower it at least to 17.39).

As to deco, we cave divers (GUE included) blow another Scuba 101 rule when we cave dive.

In Scuba 101 we are taught not to "yo-yo" dive, but when we dive in a cave (at least the caves I dive) forget "square profiles."

There is a lot of depth changes (i.e. "yo-yo" diving).

I have done the same run (i.e. same routine in the same cave following the same lines...) with Dive Computer many times, with and without scooter, and on N32 or rebreather with 0.7 Setpoint - no deco (on rebreather dives up to 3 hours long hitting that particular cave max. depth of about 22 meters risulting in maybe 14 meters average depth... no deco requirements).

So, deco is definitely not an issue (to tec diving cave standards, not PADI...) with N32 (or rebreather) and average depth of 12 meters in that cave for that run (having said that I am not sure you'd be able to understand what I am talking about if all your training and diving is PADI based, that is your approach is plain vanilla recreational).

I'd like to hear from Tony Chaney though who is a tec cave diver (is he?) why exactly my decision was a "piss-poor decision."

And the dodge of the questions continues.

I calculated your sac rate, time of penetration, and you think I won't "understand what you are talking about"....

See the problem is I am both TDI Normoxic Trimix certified AND an NSS-CDS Apprentice (Full) Cave Diver, and deco preparation is most certainly a part of the full Cave diving curriculum. To do stage cave or deep cave - the types of runs you claim, you most assuredly do deco.

I identified cave systems, based on your claims, yet you have not said which one you dove that remained at a no deco depth for the 400 meter run you supposedly did. So which cave system allowed you to go over 1200 feet without dipping below 18 meters...

It would clear up the question dispositively.