Inexpensive but not going to get me bent?

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asaara:
simply because they want to know who's computers are letting the most people get, according to the computer in question, "undeserved hits"?

Hi there Asaara -

As stated before 90 % of bent divers were within their NDL's: therefore not getting bent is more about diver behaviour than which algorithm a given computer is using.

As Snowbear alluded to, and as you already know, you should aspire to dive a profile shaped like a tick: a sharp decent and gradual curving ascent. There were some good examples in a recent thread. Although some old timers would argue that you dont need a computer to dive that sort of profile getting one really does help as you can graph your dive profile and aim to perfect its shape. Then there are other lesser factors to getting bent such as cold, dehydration, heat, post dive exercise, showers, etc. Then, down the very bottom of the contributing factors, if its a factor at all, is what model computer you have.

Just get a computer with the features you need (theres a bell ringing in the back of my mind about mac-downloadable computers - I'll get back to you) and dont worry about one computer being risker than another.


Cheers,
Rohan.
 
redhatmama:
Computers are more sensitive than your ears and it's annoyingly easy to set off the alarm.

Ah, I was just judging this based on not hearing beeping from anyone that has one while they're still ascending faster than my ears would prefer I do, and the presumption that they're also watching their bubbles and ascending at a safe rate, even if it's quicker than mine.

None of the computers I have used display residual nitrogen in anything other than a bar graph. I look up my group after each dive then log it. You can't do away with your tables and you should dive with tables in your pocket just in case.

I'm a Mac user, so unless something computerized has a little Apple logo on it, I expect it to crash. I wouldn't consider ditching the tables completely! ;-) *ducks*

Unless you are doing very deep dives and/or long dives with bigger tanks, it is unlikely that one buddy will hit the NDL before the other regardless of their computers. If you are diving AL 80s using conservative profiles, it probably won't matter if your buddy uses a more liberal/conservative computer. The depth and time of the safety stops may be somewhat different among different brands.

They differ among different "brands" of courses, too, so I'm used to the "What the hell are you doing???" looks...still not 100% sure why, even when you're just using tables and diving within limits, there's such a variance on what people are being taught is the "one right way" to do a safety stop for those types of dives. At least with a computer, you can point at it.
 
WarmWaterDiver:
Each individual has their own personal set of choices to make and the variety of information presented here is of significant value. It's a shame the constructive tone takes a back seat once someone has a difference of opinion in so many cases - myself included at times.

So, anyone else have opinions / perspectives on what they took away from the Undercurrent May 2005 issue story on this topic? I'd like to see other perspectives I can learn from. Thanks.

I remember the article, and that there were things I might find preferable to being a Cozumel dive guide, but I didn't quite get why square profile divers would get bent the most, unless the tables designed assuming square profiles aren't really that safe used that way, or if there were a lot of too fast ascents...I need more sleep, so it could be likely that I'm forgetting something blindingly obvious here, but at the moment I can't tell...
 
WarmWaterDiver:
Personally, I thought the statistics presented by Undercurrent in their May 2005 issue were quite interesting - of the groups presented, the group with the highest incidence of DCS statistically were Scapa Flow divers who were diving square profiles - not something a multi-level dive computer has influence on. The data were on dives between 1998 and 2002, so of course some will want to see newer data - I would too, so if someone has some, please present it - share it with the class.

Cozumel dive guides, who when we were there in 2001 definitely did NOT do square profile dives (and the ones we dove with did use dive computers - often ones they had found on the reefs dropped by tourists - no surprise with the dive population density there), and who had the highest dive frequency of the groups presented, had the second highest rate of DCS statistically, had about 9 times the number of dives per diver than the Scapa Flow square profile divers and yet had significantly lower incidences of DCS than the square profile cold water divers.

Shore and day boat divers had the next lowest statistical frequency of DCS cases, and liveaboard divers had the lowest frequency of DCS cases by far of these 4 groups presented. By frequency, I'm saying my perspective is the most important statistic to me was the number of DCS cases per 10,000 dives in the data presented. The number of DCS cases per diver was less meaningful data to me, due to the wide difference in number of divers in each group in the data, other than to tell me it's best for me to stick to my 'day job' and keep scuba as a hobby rather than a profession - but I already knew that was correct for me just based on my personal preferences. That data showed the Cozumel dive guides were the most likely to get bent - and was the smallest 'number of divers' group by far in the four groups studied. So, statistically, the more you dive, the more chance you have to get bent - just like the more miles or hours you drive, the greater the statistical chance for you to be in a vehicle accident.



.


I haven't seen the Undercurrent article but it sure sounds interesting. The Scapa Flow square profile divers having the highest incidence of the bends leads me to speculate a bit. At around 25m NDL times are around 20 - 25 min (give or take a bit), and obviously are getting progressively shorter as you go deeper. For example, if we were to take a 30m dive the Buhlmann NDL is 17 min. Now not many people want to go to all the trouble of getting prepared for a dive to 30m and then spend any less time than 17 min on the bottom. So if you are doing a square profile dive to 30m (ie there is nothing to look at between the surface and the bottom) there will be a strong tendency to stay for the full NDL time and then surface. Therefore these square profile dives, in depths over about 25 min, will often be conducted to the full extent of the NDLs (by table or computer - makes no difference). ie you are pushing right to limits of the allowed times.

Now contrast this with a multilevel dive, say on a coral wall or bommie with a 30m bottom. typically divers will head straight down to their max depth and spend a few minutes there and than start ascending very slowly. As they gradually work their way up the computer is giving them credit for the fact they are spending time in shallower water. Often on coral reefs the life on the top of the reef in the 5- 10m zone is stunningly good (often a greater density of life than near the bottom). So divers may well spend a large proportion of their dive in shallower water. As they slowly ascend they are in effect doing deep safety stops along the way, and often the top of the reef is in about 5-6m (perfect safety stop depth) where they may easily spend 15-20 min enjoying the miriads of fish around them. From a deco point of view it would be hard to get a safer profile than that! And conceivably you may not have come even close to the NDLs on your computer for this multi-level dive.

To me this could be a reasonable explanation as to why square profiles carried the highest risk. The stat that does surprise me is the low rate of DCS amongst liveaboard divers. I was under the impression that this was a potentially high risk activity, since it is not uncommon for liveaboards to offer 4 or 5 dives per day, for several consecutive days without a break. Did the article give any rationale for this anomally?
 
mattboy:
I doubt that your ears alert you to ascent rate issues in the way a computer will; the computer's ascent rate display is usually a series of indicators that appear to track your rate. Typically they're very sensitive, to the point where it's really difficult to not light up all the indicators, showing too fast ascent, at some point in a dive. (Lifting your arm can easily do this) This is why you usually have to exceed the ascent rate for a few seconds to set off the alarm.

It's true that my ears don't tend to notice when I raise my arm. ;-) Indicators tracking the rate will notice if I'm ascending well within limits, I would assume, however the *alarms* (how the people I've been diving with tend to have them set, anyways) don't tend to go off before my ears notice things, that's what I meant by alerting, someone other than the wearer...I'm not so close I'm looking at their displays. :)

As far as your display questions, I think there's a demo on the aeris website. You should be able to "play" with an online computer without any salesmen giving you a hard time. There are different displays when you're in the water (dive mode) and on the surface (surface mode) Dive mode will always display depth and NDL, and surface mode usually has surface time and a "plan" display, which basically scrolls through various depths, displaying NDL for each given depth if you were to re-enter the water at that moment.

Found it, thanks! Haven't really looked at Aeris computers, seeing as the LDSs I've been browsing don't seem to carry them, mostly Suunto, Uwatec, and Oceanic...at first glance, they seems to have slightly less potential for confusion than the Oceanic ones with their "very similar bubbles along the edge for everything" layout. That could be coming just from my "idiot proof everything - anything that can be confused, will be confused, never assume the customer has anything more than one barely functioning brain cell" work mindset, I have no idea if real divers would actually get confused, seeing as they *should* be equipped with slightly more than that... ;-)
 
BlueDevil:
Now not many people want to go to all the trouble of getting prepared for a dive to 30m and then spend any less time than 17 min on the bottom. So if you are doing a square profile dive to 30m (ie there is nothing to look at between the surface and the bottom) there will be a strong tendency to stay for the full NDL time and then surface. Therefore these square profile dives, in depths over about 25 min, will often be conducted to the full extent of the NDLs (by table or computer - makes no difference). ie you are pushing right to limits of the allowed times.

That was a quick answer, certainly seems to make sense (more so than the tables just Not Being That Accurate), probably what I was looking for in my head and couldn't find, thanks!
 
BlueDevil:
I haven't seen the Undercurrent article but it sure sounds interesting. The Scapa Flow square profile divers having the highest incidence of the bends leads me to speculate a bit. At around 25m NDL times are around 20 - 25 min (give or take a bit), and obviously are getting progressively shorter as you go deeper. For example, if we were to take a 30m dive the Buhlmann NDL is 17 min. Now not many people want to go to all the trouble of getting prepared for a dive to 30m and then spend any less time than 17 min on the bottom. So if you are doing a square profile dive to 30m (ie there is nothing to look at between the surface and the bottom) there will be a strong tendency to stay for the full NDL time and then surface. Therefore these square profile dives, in depths over about 25 min, will often be conducted to the full extent of the NDLs (by table or computer - makes no difference). ie you are pushing right to limits of the allowed times.

Now contrast this with a multilevel dive, say on a coral wall or bommie with a 30m bottom. typically divers will head straight down to their max depth and spend a few minutes there and than start ascending very slowly. As they gradually work their way up the computer is giving them credit for the fact they are spending time in shallower water. Often on coral reefs the life on the top of the reef in the 5- 10m zone is stunningly good (often a greater density of life than near the bottom). So divers may well spend a large proportion of their dive in shallower water. As they slowly ascend they are in effect doing deep safety stops along the way, and often the top of the reef is in about 5-6m (perfect safety stop depth) where they may easily spend 15-20 min enjoying the miriads of fish around them. From a deco point of view it would be hard to get a safer profile than that! And conceivably you may not have come even close to the NDLs on your computer for this multi-level dive.

To me this could be a reasonable explanation as to why square profiles carried the highest risk. The stat that does surprise me is the low rate of DCS amongst liveaboard divers. I was under the impression that this was a potentially high risk activity, since it is not uncommon for liveaboards to offer 4 or 5 dives per day, for several consecutive days without a break. Did the article give any rationale for this anomally?

No, the article let the data speak for itself. The article did advise further research explaining such differences would probably be helpful. The subscription and accessory on-line subscription to Undercurrent isn't a whole lot of dough, and I don't want to go too far on the article without treading on copyrights - for example, I'm not going to copy and paste it anywhere, nor keypunch in the article. The article does say this data came from the DAN Project Dive Exploration - maybe some DAN members can shed more light, such as the folks posting DAN statistics earlier in this thread?

My limited third-hand knowledge of UK area diving is seawater dives in that area of the world are often dives requiring planned deco obligation in cold, low vis, high current potential waters - not something I have any personal experience in, nor do I care to acquire such experience. If someone with such experience here can shed more light, I'd welcome such info as well. My imagination is these square profile dives are done with ascents and descents along a mooring line fixed to the wrecks, so if someone is doing an unreasonably fast ascent while using a line in current, they're in better physical shape than their time perception should allow. I don't think it's plausible to presume the higher DCI data per 10,000 dives in the Scapa Flow divers is primarily attributable to rapid ascents, but again I don't have first hand knowledge. The article did specify the Scapa Flow dives were square profiles - not multilevel profiles. This was the only group in the article specifically designated as square profiles.

Liveaboard divers were in general charachterized as "Gorilla Divers" doing multiple dives per 24 hour period for a 7 to 10 day consecutive period. If the Scapa Flow divers are doing that many dives in that time period in cold water, they're really tough hombres (and muchachas) - I doubt they do so. The liveaboard diver stats had about three times the number of dives per diver than the shore and day boat divers, suggesting a more intensive dive schedule for that group, but still nowhere near the intensity of the Cozumel dive guides in that same metric. It would be interesting if DAN presented the utilization of dive computers for liveaboard divers vs. shore and day boat divers. intuitively, I would expect dive computer utilization to be higher among the liveaboard divers than general shore and day boat divers, as a basic part of the typical liveaboard diver experience, but the article doesn't present such data one way or the other. It would be very useful data if presented.

Shore and day boat divers were charachterized as having more novice divers in this group than the other three groups presented. If one is assuming a greater tendency for rapid ascents for any group, the group with the greater population distribution of novice divers would be where I would assign that factor lacking other hard data personally.

Cozumel dive guides to me are folks that have to be in pretty decent physical fitness just due to the nature of the job and location, so I would personally rank the subjects in the other groups as perhaps less physically fit on average than the Cozumel guides, with the exception of the Scapa Flow divers - that bunch I think must be more physically fit than the average diver just due to the nature of the dive they are doing. And, I doubt these folks are doing excessive rapid ascents - I threw in the qualifier "excessive" as they may have more issues chasing down divers who don't have much drift dive experience or dive experience than typical dive guides at other locations, considering the location diver population. They may also have to do more 'bounce' diving when folks don't heed the lecture on downwellings during their dive briefings relative to other typical dive tourist locations. We certainly didn't observe any rapid ascents performed by the guides on the dives we did there in 2001.

I disagree with the assertion that the NDL limits profile of a wreck dive such as presented for Scapa Flow or a multilevel dive on a coral reef would be the same using tables or a computer for "the limits" as the NDL tables I'm familiar with give zero credit for any off-gassing during the ascent from the dive to the safety stop - unless you're referring only to tools such as the PADI Wheel. On the other hand, I don't know of a single dive computer that doesn't give any credit for off-gassing during the ascent from the dive to the safety stop. The credit for such off-gassing would move the "limit" further out, and the same profile would actually be further from the "limit" than the same profile by using tables, because the very definition of "limit" is different in the two contexts. Your presentation of the two different profiles does not account for no credit for the more gradual ascent profile inherent in square profile tables vs. algorithms used by dive computers. The depth averaging etc. as Snowbear has posted is again a different approach to "limits" than square profile tables.

Regarding ascent rates, if someone is doing slower ascents when not using a mooring line than they are performing when using a mooring line, that individual needs something to really help them out. Going hand over hand up a line vs. without can really let you pace yourself if you haven't tried this to see the difference. Some folks as they have posted in this thread are well skilled for either approach, but ascents without a reference line in physical contact are generally charachterized as more challenging to properly execute than those which make use of such a line. This may be a factor in liveaboard diver statistics vs. shore and day boat diver statistics, but it's not presented in the article.

There was no presentation of dive computer use for any of the statistics in the article. However, considering the data sample sizes presented, it would appear most such divers would be using dive computers based on other DAN statistics quoted earlier in this thread.

Maybe DAN or some other organization can perform more analysis. If the data base itself was made accessible for public read-only access, I'm sure the results and presentations available by mining such data would be prolific. However, it would also potentially allow for many presentations to be made by folks without scrupulous use of statistical analysis, and could potentially be worse in having a situation where bad information is worse than no information.
 
Oh asaara, you can get beepless dive computers that should make it clear when it's your own computer alarm going off - the TUSA IQ-800 key feature that sets it apart from other typical offerings is it vibrates instead of beeps. For this currently unique feature, it does not fit the category of 'inexpensive', but with time, maybe that will change.

http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=IQ800

There are other methods - some dive computers also have a red LED that lights up when in alarm state, in addition to beeping and flashing portions of the display. Every dive compter I've used has some sort of change in the display when in alarm, such as flashing portions of the screen charachters, alarm icons that appear on the screen, and so on. The TUSA IQ-800 incorporates flashing portions of the display as well as vibrating. At least one of the latest Cochran offerings has reverted to flashing portions of the display only when in alarm - no beeping or vibrating, much like earlier generation dive computers before audible alarm features became commonplace on these devices.

If anyone relies only on hearing beeping alone to see whather it's their dive computer in alarm state, they've already eliminated any advantage a dive computer might confer, as the display does need looked at visually on some frequency even when not in alarm state, no different than any other instrument such as analog depth gauge, timer, or SPG. The real purpose of non-visual alarms is to alert when alarm state has been entered in between visual checks of the instrument display.

That being said, it can be annoying to hear beeping and keep checking your display - another plus for diving in small groups in my experience.
 
*Floater*:
If you want something conservative and cheap, then check out Mares M1 from scubastore. Right now it's $185 with free shipping.

Yeah, but the M1 sucks - its big ugly and difficult to use (a dive buddy has one).

I use the cressi Archimedes, and compared to the M1 its bliss.

Nicolai
 
asaara:
Found it, thanks! Haven't really looked at Aeris computers, seeing as the LDSs I've been browsing don't seem to carry them, mostly Suunto, Uwatec, and Oceanic...at first glance, they seems to have slightly less potential for confusion than the Oceanic ones with their "very similar bubbles along the edge for everything" layout. That could be coming just from my "idiot proof everything - anything that can be confused, will be confused, never assume the customer has anything more than one barely functioning brain cell" work mindset, I have no idea if real divers would actually get confused, seeing as they *should* be equipped with slightly more than that... ;-)

It's a nice, large display intuitively laid out and easy-to-read. The nitrogen loading bar graphs runs horizontally. The Suunto wrist models are harder for me to read (I have mature eyes). Although, I like the Suunto Cobra very much.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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