Inconsistent message to new divers

[Cosmographer]

Presuming the diver is not overly cautious to the point of being afraid (in which case, perhaps they should evaluate their own suitability to diving in general) people are a pretty good judge of where they are at.

If the new diver hasn't been past 30' and the DM is taking him to 60' on the first outing, the DM is wrong.

If the new diver hasn't been past 30' and the DM is taking him to 40', then there's room for a conversation to assure the diver about what the differences they'll encounter are (which are minimal). After that conversation, the diver isn't doing a "trust me" dive, they're making an informed decision that the dive is within their capabilities.

People may or may not be a pretty good judge of where they are at, but they don't know that. On one of my AOW dives, my instructor and I did an extremely challenging dive that he later told me was probably the hardest dive I would ever do as a rec diver. He said he would have normally aborted that dive, but in this case, he was comfortable with my abilities to handle the environment. Did I feel that I was at that level? Nope. But the instructor was apparently correct - my performance ended up being better than some of the other DMs, instructors, and experienced divers on board.

I just think many of the experienced divers here have forgotten how little noobies know about what is the appropriate level of comfort and experience for a particular dive. Kingpatzer, in your second example, I fully expected you to say that that would NOT be acceptable. See how clueless even an AOW diver can be?

Another example: After receiving our OW, we were taken on a dive to 24 meters (OW limits us to 18m). My wife was definitely not comfortable with this, but did the "trust me" dive anyway. These were calm, warm, clear waters with no current - obviously not a problem. But I had some serious doubts about the competency of our DM for being ok with going past our limit by a few meters.

These are just examples of how little a new diver might know about balancing comfort level and experience with dive conditions. I guess the point is, new divers are not aware of their capabilities; I think they usually overestimate or underestimate them, and they probably know it. That's probably why we noobs trust our DMs so much. It was probably on my 20th-something dive where I was finally able to look at a DM's abilities critically rather than see him as a dive-god.

 

[boulderjohn]

On one hand, most SB'ers emphasize that divers are responsible for their own safety. This becomes particularly apparent in the various threads about accidents or dangerous practices among dive ops. Inevitably, some SB veteran will chime in with a comment like "they received their certification, they should have known better than to trust the DM."

On the other hand, some SB'ers (often those very same vets described above) are eager to point out that OW (and even AOW) are just the beginning. Some go so far as to say that they are nothing more than intro courses and that these certifications are meaningless insofar as their ability to determine at least a minimum level of proficiency.

There is actually no contradiction here. As an OW diver, you are just beginning your training, but even at that stage, you should have the ability to plan your own dives and recognize when a dive plan is inappropriate.

However, as a new diver, I will also say that it is unrealistic and even to some degree elitist to expect new divers to ignore or disobey their DM/Instructor. Try to remember what it was like to be a brand new diver (yeah it's probably been awhile).

From what I understand of your position here (and I did read the rest of the thread so far before posting), I fully agree with you. I just finished writing a similar post in a totally different thread. In just about any training we do in just about any subject, there is a tendency to see what you are being taught in class as a hyper-safe extreme that will eventually be contradicted by what actually happens in the real world. It's like changing oil in your car--there are many experts who will tell you that you don't have to follow those 3,000 mile limits you keep being told about.

So, yes, new divers will very much tend to follow the DM. I have had several cases in the recent past in which my students told me that their friends who are already certified told them that the only time they would ever do any of the dive planning I was teaching them was in class, because in the real world the DM does all the planning and the divers just follow them.

And so, yes, there is a contradiction. We tell students that they are responsible for their dives, but we should fully expect that when they get into their earliest dive experiences, they will be sorely tempted to do the opposite. It will be a while before they have the guts and the experience to do otherwise.

 

[Bombay High]

....you are going to open yourself up to ridicule and BS from folks who never leave the quarry. ... .

Love it

 

[nelsonrl]

Something I emphasize to my students over and over again in class and pool is that they have a responsibility to themselves to say "I am not comfortable with this dive" and call any dive, for any reason, if they are not 100% certain that it is within their training and experience. I stress that they will find themselves in situations where DM's and dive operators will ask them to do things that are outside of their certification and experience level.

I will always consider myself a new diver. I dive once or twice a year and love to do it, but job responsibilities get in the way of my recreational activities. On my last dive trip we dove a site where I called the dive after about 15 minutes - the currents were to strong for my wife and I to be comfortable with. When I signaled to the DM that I was going up, three other buddy couples did the same. We went up, waited on the boat for the rest to finish and had a good time getting to know some of our new friends a little better. Next day, low and behold, the dive plan was to go to the same dive site. Who knows what the currents would have been like, but I just very politely told the DM before we left the dock that my wife and I would site this one out on shore (surface intervals were taken on shore so not a problem for the dive operation to pick us up for dive two). I did not expect the dive operation to change to another site, nor did I ask for a refund. Several other people on the boat said the same thing. Again a conversation held with respect and no demands from anyone. The dive operation simply choose to change the site of the first dive.

Moral of the story is - as was stated earlier, have a respectable conversation and good things can happen. Your are responsible for your safety and the huge majority of the DM's and Dive Operations are very open to a sane, respectable conversation and any/all questions you might need to ask to clarify the dive plan.

 

[TSandM]

I still vividly remember going to 130 feet with a guide/instructor in Maui, on my first trip there, just a couple of weeks after I got my OW/AOW. I had no business there, nor did I know all the reasons why (no gas management), but what I knew was that my first breaths on scuba were taken under the supervision of an instructor, and here was an instructor leading this dive. Since I was trained to follow instructors and do what they told me to do, why would I have questioned this one? So I completely understand what the OP is talking about.

But what it says to me is that the professionals involved in training new divers ought to articulate this -- just as Kingpatzer describes, we should warn our students that dives in resort locations are often more than a bit ambitious for new divers, and that just because the guide says the dive is fine, does not make it so.

An instructor/guide recently killed himself and both of his clients by making bad decisions for them in Mexico. It's a flagrant but very clear example of the fact that leaders aren't gods, and that OW divers need to be prepared to offer dissent to dive plans that set off warning signals.

 

[Peter Guy]

OP, it is not just new divers who have a hard time questioning, or standing up to, the DM, especially when in a group. Here's one of my stories:

A couple of years ago (my word, it really was 3.5 years ago!), my wife and I were on a cruise in the South Pacific and we did numerous dives. We have made it a habit of doing a pre-dive check (doesn't everyone?) before we roll into the water. While starting our check, the DM (actually an instructor but acting as the Dive Leader) made what he thought was a funny joke about us doing a pre-dive gear check (while no one else was doing one). I blew up at the DM and told him that Safety was no laughing matter and that he should be ashamed of himself for attempting to get people NOT to do a gear check. I was livid (and this didn't help me during the dive) and was still mad at the end of the dive when the DM tried to tell me (again) it was "just a joke."

We are programmed to follow the leader and it is extremely hard to disagree/confront someone who is "the expert" especially when we are new to the sport. I was an instructor and new I was right and he was wrong but it was very hard for me to stick to my guns.

Final bit of info -- one of my very dear friends had been diving with this dive op two weeks earlier and had ended up badly injured (hasn't been on a dive since) so I was primed to be upset with the op. While no one else said a word during the confrontation, over the next couple of days, most came up to me and thanked me for standing up for what THEY knew was the right thing to do and say.

 

[wrybosome]

But what it says to me is that the professionals involved in training new divers ought to articulate this -- just as Kingpatzer describes, we should warn our students that dives in resort locations are often more than a bit ambitious for new divers, and that just because the guide says the dive is fine, does not make it so.

My OW instructor made a point of telling us that, and at the time I 'understood' him. But still when it came time for those first few dives I can see in retrospect that I was very much out of my element and totally reliant on the DM for anything other than controlling my own buoyancy and a bare minimum of gas management (signal at 1000psi). I'm just glad that those first dives were sanely planned and well inside normal rec limits. If he had taken the group down to 120' on the wall I guess at the time I would probably have followed him even 'knowing' that I shouldn't. It takes a little time and experience to get to where you actually have a good idea of where your limitations are.

OP, it is not just new divers who have a hard time questioning, or standing up to, the DM, especially when in a group.

Totally agree, and it can be especially tough to not go along with plans that push your envelope. It's not so hard resisting pure stupidity, but something that's just outside your comfort zone is tough to oppose if there's a whole group going along with it. No one likes being the only person to object to something even though others may be quietly thinking along the same lines.

Around dive 30 or so I didn't know enough to say no to a plan where my buddy (a local instructor) and I would go to 110' on a wreck out here and have me wait outside a hole in hull while he did a penetration. At the time I didn't know enough to be of any use to him if anything went wrong. In fact if anything had gone wrong for him I'd have been using all my resources to get back myself. But he was an instructor, must know what he was doing, etc.

Around dive 70 the same buddy invited me along on a liveaboard trip to dive three days on the USS San Diego and a civillian wreck which lay at 140'. I dive single tank. At the time I didn't do any deco, had no training for it at all. No problem says he, they'll loan me doubles and there'll be O2 hanging at 20'...it'll be a learning experience. Either the idea was stupid enough, or I'd actually learned something since I turned that one down. The trip organizer made fun of me for it too...not that I gave a crap.

My point is it's hard saying no when you're a freshly minted noob diver. It's hard because your lack of experience leads you to be uncertain about what is normal diving practice, and because the more experienced divers are often the ones pushing you. The best thing you can possibly do as a new diver is find some experienced buddies that you trust, who you know are sane and not cowboys, and go dive with them until you have the confidence and knowledge to probe your own limits intelligently.

 

[RickyF]

I love this post! To me, I think the problem is deeper. I think we have a real issue turning out divers who are not equiped to do much but very basic skills and are being told they should have the ability to plan and execute a dive? I for example did all my OW and AOW and NITROX in a quarry. No current, pretty good visability and somewhat cold water. My bouyancy and gas management sucked, though I didn't know it then because the instructor never told me or took the time to teach me. I then made my first ocean dive when I visited a friend in San Diego and dove La Jolla beach. Thank God he was an ex-navy diver and instructor. I had no more business doing that dive than a 6 year old. I had never entered through a surf zone or fought currents. I went through 120 cf of gas in about 35 minutes at 50 feet. He took me under his wing and really tought me everything that my LDS should have about proper weighting and breathing. It takes time to develop a "good" diver!!

 

[boulderjohn]

I love this post! To me, I think the problem is deeper. I think we have a real issue turning out divers who are not equiped to do much but very basic skills and are being told they should have the ability to plan and execute a dive? I for example did all my OW and AOW and NITROX in a quarry. No current, pretty good visability and somewhat cold water. My bouyancy and gas management sucked, though I didn't know it then because the instructor never told me or took the time to teach me. I then made my first ocean dive when I visited a friend in San Diego and dove La Jolla beach. Thank God he was an ex-navy diver and instructor. I had no more business doing that dive than a 6 year old. I had never entered through a surf zone or fought currents. I went through 120 cf of gas in about 35 minutes at 50 feet. He took me under his wing and really tought me everything that my LDS should have about proper weighting and breathing. It takes time to develop a "good" diver!!

That is why you are cautioned after instruction that you are only really ready for the conditions under which you were certified. When you encounter different conditions, your training might not be enough. I assure you there are truly expert divers, people who have dived all over the world and who have cave certifications and other advanced training, who have never entered the ocean through a real surf zone and would benefit from local help when doing that.

 

[muddiver]

I never followed a Divemaster until recently traveling to Hawaii, why? In California they never get off the boat! What kind of diving would that be?

So, back to the inconsistancy, there are a lot of asumptions and preconceived notions here in this post. It appears to be a post by mostly snow birds and warm water dwellers.

New divers are not all created the same. Geanted I am a product of the WAY overly trained and educated academic diving system, but it was not always that way. Scuba is a hobby, and as such one just goes out and just does it. That was the going SOP after I got my SCUBA cert from PADI back in the day. We just went diving. And along the way we learned what worked and what didn't work so well (like trying to make an entry through 6 foot surf!) Back then there was no Instructor or guide and it was accepted law that you always dive with a buddy for safety. Today even that is changing and the education available to support Solo diving or underwater photography is providing that which those of use that have never followed a guide have pretty much always known.

I digress though, because I have froggent where I was going with all of this, except that the inconsistancy that is being perceived might be because there are widely varied views by widely spaced people making comments on threads like this.

---------- Post added May 2nd, 2012 at 12:58 PM ----------

That is why you are cautioned after instruction that you are only really ready for the conditions under which you were certified. When you encounter different conditions, your training might not be enough. I assure you there are truly expert divers, people who have dived all over the world and who have cave certifications and other advanced training, who have never entered the ocean through a real surf zone and would benefit from local help when doing that.

Hey, where's the LIKE button? That was good.