Inconsistent message to new divers

[Wookie]

Cosmo, you have an excellent point, but I would like to expand on it. Yes, my 5th dive was a trust me dive, and yes, I ran out of gas at 95 feet on a high current wreck I had no business on. That was where I learned the lesson to not dive beyond my training and experience. I had no experience at 95 feet, nor in current, nor on a wreck, and it was dive number 5 for goodness' sake. Dive number 6 went much better, by the way. So, if you're going to write about your diving tales on an internet chatboard, you are going to open yourself up to ridicule and BS from folks who never leave the quarry. Anyway, I think we've all been exposed to trust me dives, and the great push back from the more experienced divers on the board is "you have a choice". You have a choice to dive with an operation such as myself where you will be given no in-water guidance, no real assistance into and out of the water, where you are expected to plan your dive and execute the dive within your own skills and ability (we cater to the more experienced diver), or you can choose to go with an operation where they do thousands of certifications per year and fully understand and cater to the diver who is trying out new things and gaining new experiences. Both options are available and quite willing to separate you from a number of your hard earned dollars.

I don't think anyone here is blaming the new diver for executing trust me dives with a divemaster. I think that the point is that if a divemaster briefs you for a trust me dive, it is incumbent on the new (or inexperienced) diver to tell the divemaster that they have never done a dive like this, they are willing to go, and ask the divemaster if the divemaster is willing to take responsibility for the new or inexperienced diver's life. It doesn't have to be said using those words, but the new or inexperienced diver must make it clear that they consider the dive a trust me dive and they can't be responsible to respond appropriately in any given situation that could occur on the dive, and that the new or inexperienced diver can not possible act as a buddy to anyone, after all, this is an experience dive.

Now, I have plenty of brand new divers who come with me and do just fine. The diving in the areas I go tends to be quite benign, although we do have our days.

 

[agilis]

Of course there is inconsistency among SB members. How could it be otherwise? There may be diving related issues about which there is consistency of opinion, but I can't think of any offhand.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Something I emphasize to my students over and over again in class and pool is that they have a responsibility to themselves to say "I am not comfortable with this dive" and call any dive, for any reason, if they are not 100% certain that it is within their training and experience. I stress that they will find themselves in situations where DM's and dive operators will ask them to do things that are outside of their certification and experience level.

I also tell them that they have to evaluate their own level of comfort and respond accordingly, as their training and experience level changes with dive experience. The dive they aren't ready to do at the start of their dive vacation might be well within their comfort zone at the end of their dive vacation after they've logged 10 more dives of recent experience in the last 3 days.

You should not do "trust me" dives. If you are listening to the dive operator tell you that the first dive you are doing after OW is to drop down to the swim through at 80' and exit at 120' after a 50' linear swim, your warning bells should be going off like crazy.

Even if the first dive is at 60' and is actually an open water and not a small cave, you should be raising your hand and asking if there aren't shallower sites to start with as it's your first dive out of OW. Heck, you should be having this conversation about dive sites for your first dives before you get on a plane, let alone on a boat!!

They should NEVER be a'trust me' dives.

You should trust your DM to be competent at evaluating your skills and matching them to dive sites. But you must be the final judge of your own experience, training and comfort level. You are responsible for saying "No, this dive is too advanced for me, we need to choose a dive site more suitable to my level."

But honestly, if new divers would have these conversations with the dive operator before they get on the plane, and would emphatically and clearly state their demands, would critically examine their own comfort and skill in the water, and would carefully choose vacation destinations suitable to their skills, then they wouldn't have to worry about "trust me" when they got to the dive site. The dive briefing would be: "This is a shallow cove, with a 30' hard bottom, there are no currents, and little wave action, you will see the reef start at 20' and slope to the bottom, we'll swim along in this area for the duration of the dive. Please keep the boat in site at all times and stay with your buddy. Have fun!"

It's only when new divers don't have forthright up-front conversations with dive operators that they find they've shown up at a location that really isn't suitable for their comfort level in the water. Then they compound that first error with engaging in "trust me" dives and trying to blame it on the DMs. There are plenty of great destinations for new divers, but there are also dive vacations that new divers have no business being on. And it's the diver's responsibly to figure that out before they book the trip.

Now all that said, I do think that dive operators are often too lax in their check-out dive procedures. I understand why they are reluctant to turn away divers who should not be diving in a particular location. But I also understand the economic pressure the guys on the boats are to take a full boat out in order to have money to buy dinner.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

I love the op's post, and the discussion it has generated. Properly trained students learn, among other things, to dive within their own comfort level and competence and expand it as they gain experience and greater competence. You gain that experience and competence diving with others who have "been there." Competent divemasters also know their limitations. I have encountered DM's who have the minimal number of dives, all in the same environment, and think they know it all, when they don't. That is why I posted my latest blog about "What makes a good DM?" But this thread is about new divers. I love diving with new divers. They are safety conscious, attentive to their gauges, and generally will follow my lead if I am leading the dive. Here is my message to new divers: Go Diving! Be safe, have fun, dive within your comfort and competence zone, and learn from every dive. When others who have never met you or dove with you tell you what to do or not do, take it with a grain of salt. When you are diving with a DM, expect competence and safe diving practices from the DM and PLEASE point out anything you think is amiss. ( see blog). Happy diving, everyone!
DivemasterDennis

 

[Mark Derail]

1 Vote For Sticky

 

[Kingpatzer]

The thing I think we're all trying to say is that it is really hard for new divers to speak up and voice their concerns during the dive briefing.

We've all been there and we all get that.

New divers can save themselves a lot of problems by being vocal about their concerns and demands prior to getting on the boat. And that is something I think far too few dive students hear.

 

[Bob DBF]

The same vets that want to flame newbs for going on "trust me" dives with a DM are usually the same ones who recommend newbs find a mentor to coach them along to gain experience. Does following a mentor somehow equate to less of a "trust me" dive than following a DM?

Depends upon whether the mentor is just take them on dives and make them mentor dependant instead of instructor (DM) dependant or will help them learn to assess their own abilities and thereby be able to make correct decisions on their competence to make a dive and when to thumb it.



Bob
---------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[Cosmographer]

You should trust your DM to be competent at evaluating your skills and matching them to dive sites. But you must be the final judge of your own experience, training and comfort level. You are responsible for saying "No, this dive is too advanced for me, we need to choose a dive site more suitable to my level."

And if the DM tells you that this dive IS suitable for your experience level? You say that new divers must be their own final judge. So who does the judge trust in this case: an experienced DM who has led hundreds of people on this particular dive or a noobie who has never dived this before and knows practically nothing about diving except whats in the OW manual? Again, I'm not saying the DM should be trusted over the noobie. I am saying that a noobie would be likely to trust the DM's expertise over his own, and justifiably so unless they've been taught otherwise - which all too often, they have not. Perhaps this would not be a problem if the OW course emphasized the importance of a noobie's comfort level regardless of the DM, much like Kingpatzer does. Unfortunately, this is not the norm.

 

[Kingpatzer]

And if the DM tells you that this dive IS suitable for your experience level? You say that new divers must be their own final judge. So who does the judge trust in this case: an experienced DM who has led hundreds of people on this particular dive or a noobie who has never dived this before and knows practically nothing about diving except whats in the OW manual? Again, I'm not saying the DM should be trusted over the noobie. I am saying that a noobie would be likely to trust the DM's expertise over his own, and justifiably so unless they've been taught otherwise - which all too often, they have not. Perhaps this would not be a problem if the OW course emphasized the importance of a noobie's comfort level regardless of the DM, much like Kingpatzer does. Unfortunately, this is not the norm.

Presuming the diver is not overly cautious to the point of being afraid (in which case, perhaps they should evaluate their own suitability to diving in general) people are a pretty good judge of where they are at.

If the new diver hasn't been past 30' and the DM is taking him to 60' on the first outing, the DM is wrong.

If the new diver hasn't been past 30' and the DM is taking him to 40', then there's room for a conversation to assure the diver about what the differences they'll encounter are (which are minimal). After that conversation, the diver isn't doing a "trust me" dive, they're making an informed decision that the dive is within their capabilities.

 

[DukeAMO]

I think that the best dive operations for newbies are the ones who are either willing to take out a boat that will only go to the "easier" sites, or take the boat to an area where the more experienced divers can go one way and the newer divers can go another (for example, newbies should stay at the top of this wall, advanced divers can go down it). Finding those dive operations can be a little tricky, but SB helps with that.

Also, as a newbie you're usually pushing your limits in some way. You go out without an instructor a couple of times (in easy conditions), and that in itself is pushing it. You get used to new gear. You try something a little deeper, or something very different from what you've done before. That's the only way to learn. It's just a matter of how much pushing you can safely do.

For example, we've never done drift diving before. I think we can handle drift diving in mild currents, but not strong ones. I believe it's my responsibility to tell the dive operator that we're new to drift diving, and to hire a DM to hand-hold us at first (often literally from what I've seen). And I believe it's the dive operator's responsibility to listen to me and not take us to an area where they have a reasonable chance of strong currents, or an area that's too deep. IMHO.