In search of octo holder that actually works

[doctormike]

I have never experienced an actual buddy running out of gas, either. The closest I came to it was when I was in a group of diver on the Spiegel Grove in Florida. One of them had apparently not noticed she had put her gear on a near-empty tank, for she went out of air very early in the dive. When that happened, she very calmly swam over to her buddy and took the alternate from the keeper without giving a signal. We all then ascended together.

I was then working in a shop that had about a dozen instructors, and I asked them to recount their experiences. Only a few had had experiences with real OOA situations, and every one of those experiences was exactly as I just described--the OOA diver calmly went for the alternate.

OK, I started another thread to collect some firsthand experience. Interesting question!

 

[Storker]

Who refuses to give an OOA diver air? I can't get my brain around that one.

The way I understand the argument, is that it's not so much the buddy refusing to donate, but the diver being in such a hurry that they just grab any reg rather than going through the motions taught in OW class.

As I've said, I've yet to experience this. I've been close (I managed to kick my buddy's reg out of his mouth, and he didn't retrieve it on the first try), but everything was resolved properly. Maybe I'm just very, very lucky with my choice in buddies.

 

[Marie13]

The way I understand the argument, is that it's not so much the buddy refusing to donate, but the diver being in such a hurry that they just grab any reg rather than going through the motions taught in OW class.

As I've said, I've yet to experience this. I've been close (I managed to kick my buddy's reg out of his mouth, and he didn't retrieve it on the first try), but everything was resolved properly. Maybe I'm just very, very lucky with my choice in buddies.

I was specifically referring to the mention of a diver who had been refused air at 100 ft. He made it to the surface and lived.

 

[Storker]

Ah. Apologies; I didn't realize that.

 

[boulderjohn]

Ah. Apologies; I didn't realize that.

I am involved in so many very active threads right now that I am dizzy. I believe it was in this thread that I responded to a post that seemed to me to be saying that he would not donate air to an OOA diver because he felt doing so with a panicked diver would put him at risk. The poster did not respond to my comments on that, so I can't be sure.

Both the events I described did happen, and over the years I have seen others say they would not donate, either.

We had a very, very contentious thread a couple years ago in which a very well known wreck diver posted a blog entry that said (I thought pretty clearly) that he would not donate air if someone requested it. I don't recall the exact words, but he said if you wanted air from him, there would be a fight, and he would win. (This was after a blog in which he advocated carrying a really big dive knife instead of the little bitty ones currently in fashion; he did not mention that it might be valuable in an OOA situation, so maybe he did not intend that.) He got quite a bit of blowback for that, and he stopped posting. A friend of his took over for him in the conversation and said that what he wrote did not mean that he would refuse to donate air in an emergency, but despite several pleas to explain what he did mean by that, he did not offer an alternative explanation. To my knowledge, that well-known diver has not posted on SB since that thread. I was on a boat diving with him several times after that, but I chose not to raise the subject. He was indeed carrying a really big knife.

 

[Storker]

over the years I have seen others say they would not donate, either.

There are some people I'd dive with anytime, anywhere. And then there are some people I wouldn't dive with for any kind of money.

I take buddy obligations pretty seriously.

 

[doctormike]

I don't recall the exact words, but he said if you wanted air from him, there would be a fight, and he would win.

A good read on the topic...

Accomplished Bad Divers

 

[halocline]

I've seen this argument more times than I can remember. What I haven't seen is data supporting it. OTOH, I've never experienced a buddy running out of gas either. Are those two things (negligently running out of gas, and panicking and grabbing any reg in sight) perhaps correlated?

I think they are, although there are other reasons for loss of gas than simple negligence. I've had my primary 2nd stage grabbed out of my mouth twice, both times as a DM. Once was in 8 feet of water by a DMT while we were supposed to be demonstrating OOA procedures. She got confused when the instructor turned her air off and panicked. The other time was a diver in a group that simply stopped monitoring his air and ran out, at about 40 ft on a reef in Roatan.

Neither case put me in any danger, I simply let the OOA diver take the reg and switched to my alternate.

I certainly think that it is possible that a low-on-air or even OOA diver would calmly signal for an octo, or reach for it, but that has not been my experience. Probably the safest assumption is that it's unpredictable. However, it certainly makes sense that an extremely concerned diver will focus on a regulator that he/she can easily see, and remember that it's more cumbersome to find an octo secured in the torso area in horizontal diving position, especially when the primary is front and center.

It's a good thing, I suppose, that there are such few incidents of true OOA that we don't have more statistics or evidence of what OOA divers do.

 

[Hatul]

As I've said before, and experienced twice, all it takes is one real OOA emergency to convince you of the folly of your arguments. OOA divers are very likely to simply grab the reg in your mouth, and you will be really impressed how fast they can move! Once this OOA diver has your 2nd stage, it's about 1000 times better to have a nice long hose tethering the two of you than a 30" 'standard' primary hose. Try it sometime, maybe with an agitated diver in some current and/or bad visibility.

Nowhere is the gap between training scenarios and reality wider than in the typical air sharing exercises in OW recreational classes.

Regarding the long hose 'wrap', if you use a proper length hose (I use 5' in open water) the routing is very easy, much more streamlined than the common big loop extending over the right shoulder, and much more comfortable because the longer hose is more flexible and allows more better head movement without the 2nd stage push-pull.

It's very difficult to argue logically against the use of primary-donate long hose in all diving, not just technical. The hogarthian guys really figured this one out a long time ago.

My only experience with air sharing in an emergency situation was when I was the one in need of air. I was diving in Hawaii at 30 ft when all of the sudden I was gulping in water instead of air. I was close to my buddy so I grabbed her octo, breathed from it and regained my calm. It turned out my mouthpiece had fallen off my primary reg and once I figured out the problem I switched to my octo and continued to dive.

I keep reading this mantra that an OOA diver will instinctively grab for the buddy's primary reg rather than the octo but no one has shown any evidence for this. Before diving, buddies know each other's configuration. Some of my local buddies are GUE trained and use a long hose so if I need air I would signal them to share with their primary. With others I can just grab their octo as I did in the incident above. It all depends.

As far as the wrap issue, I tried the long hose diving solo once and did not like it compared to my current setup. I felt I was at risk of losing the regulator if it came out of my mouth. It was a 5 foot braided hose. OK so it was my only try and I was diving solo so no benefit from having a long hose, so perhaps it was not a fair judgment. If I did technical diving I'd surely conform and adapt to the long hose but I'm really comfortable with my current setup with the primary on the standard short hose and on a bungeed necklace, and my octo clipped to the D ring.

A couple of times I electively shared my air with an air hog buddy and I was glad he did not have to take a mouthpiece straight from my mouth into his. Maybe this is an unjustified fear but I'm not sure there is enough dilution of any viruses or bacteria when a mouthpiece is quickly taken out of one mouth underwater and inserted into another. If it's a real emergency I'll take the risk but otherwise it may be an issue. I recall when we practiced mouth to mouth rescue breathing years ago with no barrier and now it's not done anymore-- we use pocket masks.
Adam

 

[MaxBottomtime]

There are way more living organisms in the water than your buddy's mouth. You're better off kissing a stranger than pulling the reg from your mouth under water.