If you could change one thing about dive training...

[Esprise Me]

The secret shopper idea is interesting. For what it's worth, I have some experience with that in the restaurant business. My first secret shopper caught me by surprise, but after that I knew what to look for, and I could always tell who they were right away. There were a number of "standards" I felt were stupid and didn't follow--not health and safety stuff, just rules about pushing alcohol and appetizers (although I know some people did skip over health standards as well), but of course I did those things in front of the secret shoppers. One restaurant I worked at gave up on professional secret shoppers and instead used people from the corporate office, who knew the rules more fluently and didn't obviously check their watches every time the server came to the table like a bunch of morons. I think to make that idea work, you'd need very experienced divers, very familiar with instructional standards, who were also good enough actors to look like noobs. It would be expensive, but maybe doable.

 

[Wookie]

I was thinking more along the lines of having a "secret shopper" type student once a quarter or at least once a year. Perhaps a simple non-secret observation program - although that is far less effective as the instructor can simply do it right during the observed class.

Have you ever "taught" a diver to dive? It becomes obvious in seconds when their trim and buoyancy are spectacular.

I had a RN diver show up wanting me to certify his wife. He didn't have a card either. But he had way better skills than I did....

 

[kmarks]

I was thinking more along the lines of having a "secret shopper" type student once a quarter or at least once a year. Perhaps a simple non-secret observation program - although that is far less effective as the instructor can simply do it right during the observed class.

I think many agencies have post-class surveys but that's only going to catch a few types of violations some of the time. Depth or teacher/student ratios are probably the most benign type of violations.

At a minimum, doing what you're already doing is not going to cause an improvement.

That would take one hell of an actor to maintain a good presentation as a noob diver for an entire OW class. I'm reading Malcolm Gladwell's Talking to Strangers right now and most of us would probably "default to truth" and reason away the inconsistencies of somebody who was way too attentive and way too knowledgeable, but keep raising enough red flags and instructors are going to think something is up. Whether it is impressive buoyancy, exaggerated skills demonstrations (those of us who are instructors have had that beaten into us enough that it's a hard habit to break), being one step ahead in putting together their equipment, or knowing too much in the classroom, there are only so many times I'm going to believe you when you say no every time I ask if this is really your first time doing this. Also, my shop is one of two SSI shops in Iowa. They probably wouldn't be able to recruit enough local secret shoppers to audit more than one class - we would wonder why somebody from out of state was taking a class with us.

My only gripe is that my BSAC instructor taught us how to vomit through our regs, control the situation and clear gunk and bile before switching to secondary before flushing the primary.

This is not taught by many instructors and I know there have been cases of drowned divers who panicked when they had to vomit.
I was given Syrup of Ipecac and it made you do the chuck chunder and we did this in the water. I will tell new certified divers I who buddy up with me how to deal with it. Some of them even get to see me do it.

I think this might not be done because it's pretty unsafe. Like the CESA, you can just explain it multiple times until the get it and hope they never have to use it. When I was in the Air Force, we did lots of emergency training drills, but they never actually gassed us or actually shot one of us so that would could have real experience in putting on our masks or Self Aid and Buddy Care.

 

[Divrtim]

Interesting discussion: My observation is this. It's not the number of dives that matter as much as the number of hours underwater. The oceans, the lakes, the caverns all have a lot to teach. Surviving a dive in each environment is a credential in and unto itself.
All this being presented: skills come with time and practice. There isn't a certification at any level that guarantees anything except a basic C card which guarantees that you can get a scuba cylinder fill. And yet progressing through the experiences of different certification "training" is the only way to get experience. It takes experience to get experience. And it takes experiences to get hours. It has been my experience that my hours under water are now the great gift to me, not the patches, pins, certificates or the many cards that fill my log book pocket. One of my card is from TDI for open ocean diving to 200 feet. 80% of that "certification" was mental preparation, equipment preparation, and a diver plan. The other 20% was making sure I came up the exact same number of feet I descended. Having done it what I learned most was a common sense take away; a stupid idea after completion is still a stupid idea.

 

[TMHeimer]

If not make rescue diver obligatory, at least include primary elements of it in OW and AOW.

Maybe the best change of all mentioned so far. The biggest skill is what to do with a panicked diver, but there are others that should be included too.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Maybe the best change of all mentioned so far. The biggest skill is what to do with a panicked diver, but there are others that should be included too.

Didn't that use to be in open water courses?

 

[TMHeimer]

It was announced at our PADI professionals webinar yesterday that there will be a new AOW elective dive which will be a Rescue Dive that incorporates several of the skills from the full Rescue course. If I recall correctly, they were self-rescue, tired diver, panicked diver, and searching for missing diver.

This is an improvement, though I still think basic rescue stuff should be in OW, so you don't have two brand new OW divers buddying up without that knowledge. I assume the "tired diver" part is more than just the 3 tows you are taught in OW?

wetb4--You mean that basic rescue stuff was in OW courses like, way back decades ago? I think so.
I have read NAUI does something with it in OW course.
I guess my big thing is there hasn't been anything in PADI OW course about panicked diver in my 16 years of diving. I mean specifically what you do, like how to get to the knee cradle position, how to drop diver's weights, etc. There may be something like "If a diver is panicking on the surface first you try establish buoyancy"-- but it doesn't describe how and you get no training doing it.
Same as "Once on land give CPR", which was in my OW manual--yes, if you know how, and that also is not in OW.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I think this might not be done because it's pretty unsafe. Like the CESA, you can just explain it multiple times until the get it and hope they never have to use it.

I never felt it was unsafe to practice. After all we were on first vomit standing with heads out of the water just vomiting through the regulator. It might have been a bit messy but it proved to be very useful. If it is so unsafe as you claim then surely it is very unsafe for divers to only have a casual brief conversation on it? This is why some people have drowned when they vomited as they panicked and drowned.

PS I would never do a CESA when I have a BCD with air in it I can rebreathe should I need to get to the surface.
That is another thing not taught and people drown when they have an air supply they could have used to live.
I was taught to use my BCD as a last resort if I had an OOA situation.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I was thinking more along the lines of having a "secret shopper" type student once a quarter or at least once a year. Perhaps a simple non-secret observation program - although that is far less effective as the instructor can simply do it right during the observed class.

I think many agencies have post-class surveys but that's only going to catch a few types of violations some of the time. Depth or teacher/student ratios are probably the most benign type of violations.

At a minimum, doing what you're already doing is not going to cause an improvement.

Funny you mention this.
I’ve had fantasies of taking an open water class somewhere where no one knows me and try to act like a total newb just to see what OW is like now. Even go as far as to rent all gear needed.
I want to see if it’s as horrendous as everyone makes it out to be.
I guess it would depend on the instructor, so they tell me.

 

[TMHeimer]

I never felt it was unsafe to practice. After all we were on first vomit standing with heads out of the water just vomiting through the regulator. It might have been a bit messy but it proved to be very useful. If it is so unsafe as you claim then surely it is very unsafe for divers to only have a casual brief conversation on it? This is why some people have drowned when they vomited as they panicked and drowned.

PS I would never do a CESA when I have a BCD with air in it I can rebreathe should I need to get to the surface.
That is another thing not taught and people drown when they have an air supply they could have used to live.
I was taught to use my BCD as a last resort if I had an OOA situation.

I forget about the breathing from BC thing. I guess it's not something one a should practice for health reasons. But a definite option to get to the surface & survive. Maybe something to consider if OOA at say 100'. I know people have CESAd from that deep. I find the CESA from 30' is easy and I practice it occasionally. Instructors must go up & down a lot, so figuring a way to space out all those student CESAs makes sense. Maybe even do some on Sat. and some on Sun.?