If you could change one thing about dive training...

[Eric Sedletzky]

I forget about the breathing from BC thing. I guess it's not something one a should practice for health reasons. But a definite option to get to the surface & survive. Maybe something to consider if OOA at say 100'. I know people have CESAd from that deep. I find the CESA from 30' is easy and I practice it occasionally. Instructors must go up & down a lot, so figuring a way to space out all those student CESAs makes sense. Maybe even do some on Sat. and some on Sun.?

Wow! Run out of air at 100’ and have to breathe off your BC air to make it to the surface.
I would think the prudent thing to do would be to train divers extensively (drilled into their heads) to check their air supply and keep their stuff serviced and in good shape. Buddy or no buddy, no excuses!
I wonder if pilots are trained to look at their fuel gauge and keep their planes maintained, or do they just carry a parachute and have to jump every once in a while?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

do they just carry a parachute and have to jump every once in a while?

Why carry a parachute when you can use trees to break your fall?

 

[Blackcrusader]

I forget about the breathing from BC thing. I guess it's not something one a should practice for health reasons. But a definite option to get to the surface & survive. Maybe something to consider if OOA at say 100'. I know people have CESAd from that deep. I find the CESA from 30' is easy and I practice it occasionally. Instructors must go up & down a lot, so figuring a way to space out all those student CESAs makes sense. Maybe even do some on Sat. and some on Sun.?

I's not hard to keep your own BCD bladder clean with some anti bacterial cleaning solutions. After all is one not meant to maintain our own equipment? I'd rather keep a clean BCD and risk a lung infection than trying to recover from drowning.

Yes I have practiced it from 30m using my own clean BCD. One time I did that my good friend who ran the dive shop said pls don't do that again in sight of our divers they freaked out and had never seen such a thing and you also refused offers of air from other divers as I ascended and gave them the OK sign. It's time management breathing management mind management and ascent rate.

One could also try putting a plastic bag over their head and try that. Dry cleaning plastic makes for a good sized bag.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Wow! Run out of air at 100’ and have to breathe off your BC air to make it to the surface.
I would think the prudent thing to do would be to train divers extensively (drilled into their heads) to check their air supply and keep their stuff serviced and in good shape. Buddy or no buddy, no excuses! wonder if pilots are trained to look at their fuel gauge and keep their planes maintained, or do they just carry a parachute and have to jump every once in a while?

Pilots have crashed their planes with plenty of fuel on board.

People have had equipment failure at depth and had air in their tanks. One should not assume someone just didn't look at their gauges. Free flows do occur and gear can be broken. I've never been OOA or had a free flow that ended a dive. The point is that divers have drowned because they were not taught to cheat death by using an existing air supply in their BCD that would have kept them alive and got them to the surface. The prudent thing is to train for an emergency that you may never experience in real life. Knowledge can save a life. Many people have survived with this procedure.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I think to make that idea work, you'd need very experienced divers, very familiar with instructional standards, who were also good enough actors to look like noobs.

For sure it's an interesting idea, my problem with it is the availability of instructors that have enough teaching experience, an in depth knowledge of the standards and their interpretation, and who are capable auditors.

Everyone assumes that these would come from the agency Regional HQ. The reality is, the vast majority of agency staff don't have that experience. Bear in mind that many internal promotions require a certain dive certification - I'm sure you can see where that goes.

The best and most capable instructors are at the coal face. Even or RE's (regional examiners) aren't that common.


In a previous professional career, I had to recertify every 3 years. So sit theory, and practical. Not sure how that would work

Also "teaching" someone who is role playing (Like IDC) where you observe the mistake, correct it and the "student does it properly - is far removed from the real world.


One final point. Everyone (I include myself) would like to see some changes to the standards for diver training. In reality this is quite hard and has to be done by the agency in baby steps.

Dive centres provide the agencies main revenue stream. If a shop feels changes make teaching courses too onerous or expensive, there are other agencies that would accept them - It's the Job of regional business managers to ensure shops in theri region stay with them and to "encourage" shops from other agencies to swap.

You can bet that there is always significant push back with significant course standard changes

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

One could also try putting a plastic bag over their head and try that. Dry cleaning plastic makes for a good sized bag.

You have got to be kidding me.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Pilots have crashed their planes with plenty of fuel on board.

People have had equipment failure at depth and had air in their tanks. One should not assume someone just didn't look at their gauges. Free flows do occur and gear can be broken. I've never been OOA or had a free flow that ended a dive. The point is that divers have drowned because they were not taught to cheat death by using an existing air supply in their BCD that would have kept them alive and got them to the surface. The prudent thing is to train for an emergency that you may never experience in real life. Knowledge can save a life. Many people have survived with this procedure.

No agency that I’m aware of is going to train divers to use BC air to survive. That would be an unreliable and potentially very dangerous maneuver not to mention the variation in BC designs and accessibility to be able to do that on some BC units.
The best solution is to pay attention, keep your gear in good shape and pick quality brands, have a buddy with a similar mindset, and or carry a pony.
Breathing from a BC is not a viable or practical solution.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Why carry a parachute when you can use trees to break your fall?

Yeah you’re right, parachutes are probably too much by the book. I guess we’re using whatever else we have at our disposal now.

 

[Blackcrusader]

Breathing from a BC is not a viable or practical solution.

I was taught it by my BSAC instructor in my novice sports diving as a last resort. But then again I think he taught many things not always found in the manual. He was also a commercial dive instructor and we learned some things about not relying on others to save us but to be able sort some situations by ourselves. It's practical if you really wanted to stay alive in a last resort situation. It's all well and good to say carry a pony or rely on your buddy but this is for an extreme emergency when you cannot get to a buddy and don't have a pony with you. After all how many recreational divers bring a pony bottle with them?

I know others who have been taught it but it is not common.

 

[boulderjohn]

I was taught to use my BCD as a last resort if I had an OOA situation.

I'm sorry you were taught this. It would be good to forget it.

This has been discussed many times on ScubaBoard over the years, and every such thread ends with a consensus of "don't do it!" I can't possibly repeat everything in those threads, so I will go to my personal key point, which maybe points at something I would love to change about scuba instruction--how we teach the CESA.

I have written about this in at least a dozen threads and written to PADI leadership to no avail. The way we (PADI and most mainstream agencies) are required to teach CESA defies all instructional theory on performance instruction. I could write a chapter explaining why, but I will cut to the main idea--what we do in instruction ingrains in students one critical, overriding misconception--that CESA is really, really hard, and they will probably not be able to do it successfully in a real OOA event. I believe most instructors have the same misconception and convey that that belief to the students.

Not only do we have them practice improperly, we fail to teach some critical facts, leading to common misconceptions.

• People believe that if they suddenly go OOA after exhaling, they will have no air to expel, when in fact their lungs are half full after an exhalation and will be full from explansion very quickly upon ascent.
• People do not realize that when the US and British Navies teach submarine escapes (buoyant ascents--pretty much the same thing), they teach them to exhale completely before beginning to ascend.
• People are are not taught that the last few breaths before going OOA get harder and harder to breathe, and that if a diver were to start ascending as soon as it gets harder to breathe, they would probably make it to the surface before going OOA.
• People are not taught that the tank is not actually OOA but simply cannot supply air through the regulator at that depth. When the diver ascends, the regulator will once more be able to supply some air.

I would much, much rather start a CESA from any recreational depth--even below 100 feet--then suck air out of my BCD.