If you are a new diver, please read this

[BHB ScubaTroll]

Peter asked me to post on this thread and revise my original statements. He CAN teach gas management.

Ah.... Thanks...

I was realy worried for a time there.

I certainly wouldn't think a beginning diver would have a working knowledge of advanced gas management, but I would expect an instructor to instruct a beginning diver about normal dives, like dives to 66' US

 

[shellbackdiver1]

SAC calculations... what happens if I have to sneeze, breath because I am excited, or just because I think you are a dork! ? YOUR Gas calculation is based on bs... a new diver's gas calculation is based on their bs... and now you are asking a "new diver" to know what their "SAC" rate is as it changes with every dive.... (just like your experienced dive does).... riiiiiiiight..... Don't get me wrong, they are great for general effort, but if you follow your logic, nothing changes as you dive, or as you learn...
SAC calculations change on every single dive, and even change during the dive....

Is it too much to ask a diver, any diver to do the calculation on the fly? A very simple equation using approximent values rounded off. Is it too much for a diver to know for 90% of divers out there it would be wise at about 110bar at 30meters you and your teammate should start to think about getting above 18meters. Or how about 70bar at 18meters start to think about going above 9meters. It's very simple to explain why with basic math taught in the 3rd/4th grade.

The key is to know your average SAC over time of many dives. You know that simple equation of Gas Used / (Time of Dive * Average ATM)?

I inform all divers with your attitude towards gas management is a red flag and they need to either sit that dive out or find another teammate.

 

[LavaSurfer]

PADI, you are not permitted to teach SAC calculations, the heart and soul of gas management.

I keep hearing "you are not permitted to teach SAC calculations"
Please show me where it is started I cannot teach them.

 

[AquaExplorer]

I am a soon-to-be new diver, and reading this thread has been sobering. It also has reminded something I had drilled into my head when I got my private pilot certificate..."it is a license to learn".

In other words once you had the cert, NOW you were really beginning your training and you should never forget that.

With that said, I am saddened to hear of the lose of life.

 

[Diver0001]

I keep hearing "you are not permitted to teach SAC calculations"
Please show me where it is started I cannot teach them.

Theres a grey area with respect to elaboration. You know that.

It's not "forbidden" per se but I think that PADI wouldn't see the utility in the context of OW diving and I think if you got QA'd they'd call it "exceeding".

Where I think you could probably get away with teaching it under "elaborating" would be in the deep specialty because you have to talk about tank sizes etc.

R..

 

[aMc10]

Where I think you could probably get away with teaching it under "elaborating" would be in the deep specialty because you have to talk about tank sizes etc.

R..

I don't know if it's part of the standard curriculum, but there was certainly a lot of gas management taught in my (PADI) deep specialty. We were taught how to calculate SAC rate, and how to determine how long different tank sizes would last us at different depths. We also calculated the minimum amount of air needed for a safe ascent from depth taking into account the possibility of needing to take a couple of minutes to sort out any problems at depth and the probability of an increased SAC rate. We then calculated the minimum size of a redundant air source we would need to support that ascent.

On the first two dives we measured our rmv. We then calculated our individual SAC rates and used them to plan the next dive, determining what our turn pressure should be based on our different tank sizes.

 

[D_B]

as has been said, useful SAC calculations are based on many dives ... how do you compute a useful SAC rate for a new diver for those many dives that they haven't done yet?
... and with a new divers breathing rates that are all over the place, how do you come up with a figure (besides a guess of 1)

In OW, I remember that we understood that air consumption climbed rapidly with depth, the need to monitor our air more closely the deeper we dive, and to know your buddies pressure too .... I watched my gage, let others know of my pressure, asked what theirs was ... I was lucky that my dive buddy had air consumption rates that were the same as mine and made that easier
I also remember being very worried about understanding, and remembering all "this stuff" I needed to learn before each session .. it sure seemed like a lot , and it all was so very important. (3 week course)
How much more info could I have absorbed? and besides, if you don't monitor your air often enough, what are any formulas going to do to help with figures on a gage you don't look at?

I now use Lamont's "rule of thumb" for my HP100 tank and it works very well with my current SAC rate ( SAC rate calculation was done by my dive computers download software .. I can't calculate mine "on the fly")

I'm sorry that she ran out of air, sorry that she/they may have been distracted long enough for this to happen, sorry she died .. sad

 

[l0keman]

With my PADI cert that I just wrapped up less than a week ago, we were tought basic air conservation skills. We were tought to always watch our gauges and buddy's gauges. We were taught that the deeper we go and more strenous things we did, we would use more air and most importantly, we were taught that at 1K PSI to call the dive. We were told that if we payed very close attention to our air and filled out our logs properly we would start to learn our breathing patterns and requirements. I am very glad we were taught all this stuff. I see it being very important.

I would not tell my daughters to just "keep an eye on your gauges and head up before you're empty." When you are freaked out at the surface as a new diver on your 6th opena water dive... you don't remeber to dump your weights or orally inflate your BC... especially if your BC is an airtrim model and requires more steps.

 

[rstofer]

With my PADI cert that I just wrapped up less than a week ago, we were tought basic air conservation skills. We were tought to always watch our gauges and buddy's gauges. We were taught that the deeper we go and more strenous things we did, we would use more air and most importantly, we were taught that at 1K PSI to call the dive. We were told that if we payed very close attention to our air and filled out our logs properly we would start to learn our breathing patterns and requirements. I am very glad we were taught all this stuff. I see it being very important.

I would not tell my daughters to just "keep an eye on your gauges and head up before you're empty." When you are freaked out at the surface as a new diver on your 6th opena water dive... you don't remeber to dump your weights or orally inflate your BC... especially if your BC is an airtrim model and requires more steps.

Assuming you are talking about completing OW (as opposed to AOW), remember your depth limit of 60' At this depth, you consume air at 3x your surface rate (at least). If you go to 100' you consume it at 4x or 33% faster than 60'. It is often much more than that because it is generally colder, darker and more anxiety inducing. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual consumption rate doubled between 60' and 100' just due to the environment and anxiety.

This incident really revolves around just one issue: not paying attention to the SPG. All the gas planning in the world, even if just the rule of 1/3's, won't do a thing if the diver doesn't watch the SPG. I suppose you could put a dive buddy issue in here as well. But, really, relying on a buddy to watch YOUR SPG seems ridiculous.

Air is your life and the SPG indicates your life expectancy in least usable units.

Richard

 

[LavaSurfer]

Theres a grey area with respect to elaboration. You know that.

It's not "forbidden" per se but I think that PADI wouldn't see the utility in the context of OW diving and I think if you got QA'd they'd call it "exceeding".

Where I think you could probably get away with teaching it under "elaborating" would be in the deep specialty because you have to talk about tank sizes etc.

R..

Could be. I was taught so differently than the way I teach. My Instructor was a CMAS/YScuba/PADI instructor and he blended them all together and added his 20,000+ Recreational and Commercial Diving experience to the whole thing. It was a WONDERFUL course and we did things that some organizations would cringe at like Bailout, Gas laws and physics. Now I teach for him and we only teach PADI. However, I am VERY passionate about the Physiological effects of breathing gases at depth and I am VERY passionate about Planning so I tend, I guess, to elaborate, or get carried away but I also know how to read my audience and stop if I am going to far. Often it is taken offline with those that are very interested.

To date, nobody has complained and in our surveys I get very high reviews but I guess it is a possibility that someone doesn't like my style. I always feel I could teach more but within the bounds, I hold back.

Certainly in Deep Specialty Gas Management must be addressed but I also agree that in Basic OW, suggesting Rule of thirds, accelerated usage at depth and back to surface pressures is important. It may not be the most picture perfect model of Gas management but it does seem to be enough for the masses.

Someone said Certification Agencies are bordering on Criminal. I think that is stretching it a tad bit. There are millions and millions of dived made every year and in general the sport is extremely safe, almost to a fault safe because it builds false security. People just are not dropping like flies in the oceans. If we want to look at a dangerous industry then lets look at Kayaking or Mountaineering or Mt Climbing or Street Auto Racing. The death rates are much higher and they don't even require certification.

I think we all are doing very well and Instructors in general, really do care what they teach and are doing everything they can to make safe divers and divers safe.

I said this before, when someone finished the Open Water Course, that is the beginning, not the end for most people who continue in the sport. Most will stop and never go back an in rare cases, there are those that dive every 5 years on a cruise. Those are the ones that scare me.