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IE Pass Rate

Discussion in 'Going Pro' started by EmmaDuffy, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. EmmaDuffy

    EmmaDuffy Angel Fish

    12
    4
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    Hi FlyinV, thanks for the link to the exams, very very good! Highly recommended for anyone starting the IDC. Thanks again x
     
    pconsidine and FlyinV like this.
  2. MikkelBC

    MikkelBC Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Denmark
    209
    106
    43
    @wetb4igetinthewater , you mention two different situations where instructor candidates perform skills during the instructor examination:
    1) Performing skill demos thereby proving that they are able to demonstrate skills to students.
    2) Posing as students for other instructor candidates who then have to make sure that they fulfil the performance requirements for the skill.

    I think what you are talking about is situation 2, instructor candidates posing as students. I will call those "fake students" in the following.

    In this situation, the "fake student" will be assigned some mistake to make during the performance of the skill. The instructor of the fake student must then do 2 things:
    a) Not approve a skill performance unless the performance requirements are met
    b) Help guide the student to perform the skill in a manner fulfilling the performance requirements

    The guide to teaching contains a list of "Commonly encountered problems" which I believe you are referring to. Note that this is not a list of "errors" but a list of "problems". This list is there to assist with point (b).

    Let's take partially flooded mask clearing as an example. The performance requirement in Confined Water dive 1 is "Clear a partially flooded mask.". No more, no less. If the fake student fails to do that, then the instructor needs to identify what the problem is. The list of commonly encountered problems can help with that. That is what that list is for - it is a troubleshooting list, not a list of requirements. It is also not a complete list of problems that can cause a student to fail to meet a performance requirement. There could be other reasons why a student fails to clear his mask than the common problems listed.

    I hope this helps to clarify the difference between "Commonly encountered problems" and "Performance requirements".

    Maybe some confusion is caused by the fact that there is a lot of overlap between the points in the "Commonly encountered problems" and the "Performance requirements". Let's take an example: the hovering skill from Confined Water dive 3. The performance requirement is "Hover using buoyancy control for at least 30 seconds, without kicking or sculling." In the list of commonly encountered problems one of the points is "Using hands/legs to maintain position — sculling". Since this "problem" is also a direct failure to meet the performance requirement, it is required of an instructor candidate to identify and correct it if a "fake student" does it. But some of the commonly encountered problems do not necessarily result in a failure to meet the performance requirement and in that case they do not necessarily need to be corrected.

    As an instructor candidate you are being tested in your ability to detect and correct any problem that causes a student to fail to meet the performance requirement for a skill. Not only those problems listed in the Commonly encountered problems list. That list is just a helpful guide.
     
    MichaelMc and Cowfish Aesthetic like this.
  3. abnfrog

    abnfrog Tech Instructor

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: great white north
    1,387
    849
    113
    the real bottom line here is if your CD has prepared you RIGHT he will know you can pass, just do your best .....its in the IDC instructors best interest to see you pass
     
  4. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Boulder, CO
    25,635
    17,069
    113
    Yes, it is, and ironically that can lead to problems down the road, perhaps as indicated to some degree in this thread.

    The dive shop where I was working had a new director of instruction, a man who had gone through an IDC program in the Caribbean to rise to his certification level. He had had no experience beyond his initial DM instruction in seeing instruction any other way than occurred in the full month that he interned for the shop that gave him his IDC and a slew of other instructor certifications. We had a DM course coming up, and he wanted to make sure we were consistent with how we taught the skills. He had the videos from the IDC program he had gone through, and he wanted to make sure that we taught everything exactly the way they did. I looked at the videos, and they were absurd. They were all on the knees, of course, but they were also ridiculously elaborate and overdone. I resisted mightily, and he told me things HAD to be done that way, or the student risked failing an IE.

    I sent an email to PADI asking for a clarification on some of the things he had said, and within an hour I got a phone call from a familiar name there. I am sure he called so that there would be no written record of what he said. He said these big IDC programs guarantee that students will pass the IE, and to make that happen they have mandatory routines that include everything they think any Instructor Examiner MIGHT like to see in a performance. They drill and drill and drill and drill their IDC students until they do it perfectly. He said that if you got a group of them together and had them do the same skill at the same time, it would look like a synchronized swimming routine.

    Yes, doing it the way they demand is absolutely mandatory in their IDC. No, doing it that way is NOT required in the IE. No, it is not required when you instruct on your own.

    He admitted it is a problem. He agreed that the sequences are overdone and overly elaborate. The problem is that none of it is wrong, so they always get the high scores they guarantee their students will get.

    So I refused to work in the new DM program, and it was the beginning of the end of my relationship with that shop.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  5. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Boulder, CO
    25,635
    17,069
    113
    In contrast to the elaborate and well-drilled routines I just described....

    When I did my IE and got the list of the demonstrations I had to do, I was surprised to see one I did not recognize. My CD was attending the IE, and I asked him what it was. He had no idea. He told me he would find out and hurried off. I geared up for the presentations, and just before they started, he came running back. He said it was a new skill that was being added to the Rescue Diver course, but had not yet been added. A notification about it had been sent to CDs a few months before, but he had somehow missed it. He gave me a description in a sentence or two, but that was all he knew about the skill himself.

    As we took our turns doing our performances, I thought it through. Why would you use this skill? Under what circumstances? What would it look like? What kind of problems might arise?

    Then it was my turn. I explained the purpose of the skill, why it was necessary, what the key attributes were, what kinds of problems might arise. I then demonstrated a skill that I had never seen done before. After that I conducted the training session for it.

    I scored a 5.
     
  6. abnfrog

    abnfrog Tech Instructor

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: great white north
    1,387
    849
    113
    as my IDC was 35 plus years ago it was completely different to what I teach on my idc's now so apples to bowling balls
     
  7. Bubble Junky

    Bubble Junky Course Director

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: In paradise...
    1,869
    128
    63
    The snorkel thing...

    On a skill circuit at an IE it should be in the mouth. I had an IE where three groups were graded differently by three different Examiners for this issue on BCD R&R at the surface - one Examiner gave 1s, another gave 2s and another passed the candidates with just counselling. It just so happened these Examiners were presenting the CD Updates the next day, and this was discussed in detail. They had discussed it in private and agreed a 2 for that skill was the 'preferred' score, and would communicate this to all Examiners (in Asia Pacific at least, I guess). As the preferred method was to have something in the mouth. Nobody failed the IE for this - they just had to redo that skill after feedback.

    If a student is assigned this problem during a teaching presentation, and the problem is missed by the 'instructor' the candidate can still pass but would get a 2 in the problem solving area for 'missing a problem', but could still comfortably pass the presentation scoring a 4.4 if everything else was 'perfect'. It's not a standard to have the snorkel in, but is preferred technique for surface skills. Not all problems assigned during teaching presentations are 'standards' (it's also not a standard to look up when clearing a mask, but it is the preferred technique, and a commonly assigned problem).

    That's just my personal experience of what has happened at a few IEs...
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  8. Bubble Junky

    Bubble Junky Course Director

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: In paradise...
    1,869
    128
    63
    I have some info on my website that might help you prepare - PADI IDC Thailand - Study Tools Dive Theory Instructor Development Course

    You need to get 75% in each of the five dive theory topics (one remake allowed at the same IE). you also need to get 75% on the standards exam - no remake allowed as you have the answers in front of you...
     
  9. MikkelBC

    MikkelBC Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Denmark
    209
    106
    43
    Your example is a good one for discussing this topic. So if the student manages to clear the mask perfectly without looking up, does the instructor still need to correct the student? In my opinion, the answer is no, because then the "problem" was not a problem. If, on the other hand, if the student fails to clear the water out of the mask because he is not looking up, then it does need to be corrected.
     
  10. Bubble Junky

    Bubble Junky Course Director

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: In paradise...
    1,869
    128
    63
    If he wants to score a perfect 5.0 for the presentation, it needs to be corrected. But you can pass without correcting, as long as the mask was completely cleared, as that is the performance requirement...
     
    MikkelBC likes this.

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