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Okay, let's just agree to disagree here, as the Course Director, whomever who trained him, various IE's see it differently than you, LeRoy, and other equally qualified people at PADI.
Regional Directors speak for PADI. He isn't just some Schmo I dug up. The way PADI is structured today, when you have a question about standards, you go to your Regional Director for an official answer.

So you say that various IEs and other equally qualified people see it differently. You must have polled quite a few. (By the way, there are only a handful of equally qualified people, so you don't have a lot of choices.) Get one of them to put it in writing the way I did.
 
Get one of them to put it in writing the way I did.
You seriously think I'm going to go back to my CD and ask him to have one of these folks to put in writing?!??

You must be joking. Hey, believe what you want. I think the evidence to which I have presented is correct. You do not. We are not going to convince each other. And honestly, I do not care what you believe. I'm hesitant to accept the word from someone who is a Regional Director who "speaks for PADI" as I've met a couple who were complete clowns.

Now if you get Drew to respond, then my viewpoint will be changed.

Why don't you get that in writing from Drew instead?

Plus you apparently didn't ask LeRoy to explain the PADI Guide to Teaching that I pointed out.
 
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You seriously think I'm going to go back to my CD and ask him to have one of these folks to put in writing?!??
Why on Earth not? If these people have the official word, why would they want it to be a secret?
I'm hesitant to accept the word from someone who is a Regional Director who "speaks for PADI" as I've met a couple who were complete clowns.
Clown or not, a Regional Director speaks for PADI. This one has been in the PADI hierarchy for decades.
Now if you get Drew to respond, then my viewpoint will be changed.

Why don't you get that in writing from Drew instead?

Plus you apparently didn't ask LeRoy to explain the PADI Guide to Teaching that I pointed out.
This reminds me of the endless debates we had on ScubaBoard when DevonDiver kept quoting from the guide to teaching in an attempt to prove that teaching OW students while they were neutrally buoyant was a violation of standards. In that discussion, we got representatives from PADI headquarters to say in the most direct language possible that there were no standards violations in teaching students while neutrally buoyant. They said that all standards are carefully written in the Instructor Manual. The Guide to Teaching is a collection of helpful ideas. DevonDiver said that anything coming from anyone at PADI headquarters was just the individual opinion of whoever wrote to you. When CEO and President Drew Richardson was quoted in another context, he said he was just giving his personal opinion as well, and anyone who followed that personal opinion was risking getting expelled for violating standards.

So, no, I did not ask LeRoy about the Guide to Teaching, because we went down that rabbit hole before and got an official answer. I explained it already, but I will summarize below:
  1. The Instructor Manual contains ALL standards that must be followed.
  2. The Guide to Teaching provides helpful ideas. Instructors are not required to follow them precisely.
It is obvious that nothing will change your mind. I am only writing this for others who need the information. They can choose whom they want to believe--a PADI Regional Director or a former (and clearly disgruntled) PADI instructor who quoted an unnamed Course Director and claims to have knowledge of other unnamed PADI officials who disagree but are afraid to put their disagreement in writing for fear that... um....um...I guess I don't know why these PADI officials are afraid to identify themselves when explaining standards.
 
That is pathetic if the PADI guide to teaching is worthless. I don’t name my CD as he would not want anything to do with this. He hates ScubaBoard.

You can call me disgruntled or what other names you like, such “prick” as you said in a PM. I don’t care. I do respect the work you did with a number of other folks to get PADI to approve teaching open water neutrally buoyant.

But man, do you ever get unhinged at any criticism of PADI, no matter how justified. I’m not referring to this thread, but whenever I see anything on SB or FB, I wonder when you are going to chime in. It is never long.

So PADI’s guide to teaching is worthless. Performing documented problems is A-OK.

This actually has made me laugh from how pathetic it is. I thought PADI was a better organization than this. I guess I was wrong.

Btw, clown regional directors do get things wrong time to time. Now that I think of it, I’d never go to the ones I had on training/standards, but a training consultant.
 
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@wetb4igetinthewater , I think the argument above stems from a simple confusion about the word "standards".
In the PADI system, the word has a very specific meaning. This is the definition from the Instructor Manual:

Text appearing in boldface print denotes required standards that may not be deviated from while teaching the course.

In the Quality Management section of the Instructor Manual, the term "PADI Standards violations" is used. As I understand it, this refers to the "required standards that may not be deviated from" mentioned above.

The PADI Guide to Teaching does not contain required standards. But that does not make it useless. It contains a lot of useful guidance about how to teach your students well.

During my instructor course, my course director warned us about believing that there was only one way to teach something. He said that just because our instructors once taught us to do something in one way, that does not mean that PADI requires us to always do it that way. The only strict requirements from PADI are the standards (denoted by boldface in the instructor manual). PADI offers lots of other guidance and advice that is useful although it is not strict requirements. And we should adapt our teaching to the situation and the students while staying within the required training standards.

I think the structure of this system is basically sound. There should be parts of the system that cannot be deviated from and parts that are flexible so that the instructor can adapt to the situation.
 
@wetb4igetinthewater , I think the argument above stems from a simple confusion about the word "standards".
In the PADI system, the word has a very specific meaning. This is the definition from the Instructor Manual:

Text appearing in boldface print denotes required standards that may not be deviated from while teaching the course.

In the Quality Management section of the Instructor Manual, the term "PADI Standards violations" is used. As I understand it, this refers to the "required standards that may not be deviated from" mentioned above.

The PADI Guide to Teaching does not contain required standards. But that does not make it useless. It contains a lot of useful guidance about how to teach your students well.

During my instructor course, my course director warned us about believing that there was only one way to teach something. He said that just because our instructors once taught us to do something in one way, that does not mean that PADI requires us to always do it that way. The only strict requirements from PADI are the standards (denoted by boldface in the instructor manual). PADI offers lots of other guidance and advice that is useful although it is not strict requirements. And we should adapt our teaching to the situation and the students while staying within the required training standards.

I think the structure of this system is basically sound. There should be parts of the system that cannot be deviated from and parts that are flexible so that the instructor can adapt to the situation.

I get what you are saying. I see the guide to teaching as supporting documentation to the standards. There is a pecking order to standards.

The problem that I see here with PADI and some Course Directors and Instructor Examiners is that there are a set of published problems that can be ignored.

Let's say during my IE, one of the "students" is to perform the scuba kit removal and replacement at the surface. They are assigned the problem of not having a snorkel or regulator in their mouth. Because of the way I was trained, I don't catch that.

So what kind of score am I supposed to get? Do I get a pass? Fail? What?

You do see the issue here right? Please tell me you do, as I think this is insane. Absolutely insane.

How can a training organization list a set of problems and allow instructors to demo those problems?!?!?

Is my thinking that wrong? Because right now, I'm in complete disbelief.
 
Perhaps an outside observer with no dog in the fight can help cut through the obvious personal issues here (though I doubt it).

It seems to me to have been clearly established that the word standard has a very clear meaning within PADI instruction, and equally clear that having a snorkel in your mouth during this drill is not required within those standards. It may be suggested, it may be a best practice, it may be a commandment from God on high, but it seems to clearly not be a standard. Therefore, with the seemingly clear rules, no one should be failed for not adhering to it.

Edited to add: of course whether you think it should be a standard is an entirely different question.
 
Perhaps an outside observer with no dog in the fight can help cut through the obvious personal issues here (though I doubt it).

It seems to me to have been clearly established that the word standard has a very clear meaning within PADI instruction, and equally clear that having a snorkel in your mouth during this drill is not required within those standards. It may be suggested, it may be a best practice, it may be a commandment from God on high, but it seems to clearly not be a standard. Therefore, with the seemingly clear rules, no one should be failed for not adhering to it.

Edited to add: of course whether you think it should be a standard is an entirely different question.

LOL, hey, I'm trying to stick with facts here.

When I went through my IDC/IE, we were taught to respond to the problems from the list in the guide to teaching. We would be dinged if we missed something. Now the IE was very clear that we are to not invent problems, but only conduct the problem we were supposed to do when we acted as students. Failure to do so meant failing the IE.

So I don't see how we are being tested on catching problems in a document that is apparently not supportive of the standards, which dictates our pass/fail in an IE, I just don't know what to think of that.

My mind is blown.

Does it make sense to anyone what I'm trying to address?

Have I simply lost the plot?
 
LOL, hey, I'm trying to stick with facts here.

When I went through my IDC/IE, we were taught to respond to the problems from the list in the guide to teaching. We would be dinged if we missed something. Now the IE was very clear that we are to not invent problems, but only conduct the problem we were supposed to do when we acted as students. Failure to do so meant failing the IE.

So I don't see how we are being tested on catching problems in a document that is apparently not supportive of the standards, which dictates our pass/fail in an IE, I just don't know what to think of that.

My mind is blown.

Does it make sense to anyone what I'm trying to address?

Have I simply lost the plot?

I'm not an instructor, and I'm not familiar with the standards or the guide. But based on the discussion so far, it sounds to me like your IDC/IE was improperly conducted.
 
I'm not an instructor, and I'm not familiar with the standards or the guide. But based on the discussion so far, it sounds to me like your IDC/IE was improperly conducted.
unless you have went thru the whole IDC/IE process would be impossible to discuss any point.
 
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