Ice diving course?

[Marie13]

What facility is this?

It’s up in the hinterlands of northern Ontario. Look up Temagami. About 7 hours east of the Soo. Lovely drive, but LONG. I did ITT/VIP there in 2019.

 

[Tracy]

It’s up in the hinterlands of northern Ontario. Look up Temagami. About 7 hours east of the Soo. Lovely drive, but LONG. I did ITT/VIP there in 2019.

People often ask me for ice diving classes. I don't like ice diving, good to have people to recommend.

 

[Gone for diving]

It occurred to me we are taking about ice diving during a heat wave...

 

[ginti]

John chatterton has a really good article on a BFK. Stick that into the mud, sand, tie off your second spool. And do your search pattern...
Personally I like to dive and have something to see. So it would be rare for me to dive in the middle of a mud lake.
Also I ice dive in area that I know well before hand.
As stated before I could fine my way out without a line if I was dumb enough to do so. Or if the dive went all to pieces, and could not find a broken or lost line.

How do you d the search pattern?

1) No visibility exit (this is probably important in ice diving, but I bet the procedures are different)
It would not be uncommon to not see the exit hole.

2) Navigation with cookies and arrows
Sure use them if you want. But I am laying my own line...
where no other lines are... don't see the point.

3) Decompression with sawtooth profiles
Do not do that. Not sure how that is done in open water...

4) Broken line procedures
Tie off with a spool and search for line....

1) not see the exit is totally a different thing from the "no visibility exit" in a cave. In a cave (not in a cavern) you usually do not see the exit except when you are close to the entrance: after the first corner, the entrance/exit is always hidden...
2) navigation in caves on the mainline is done with cookies, when you live the mainline you usually put an arrow except if you are exploring - in this case, you just lay the "new" mainline; the only other place where you use your own line is in the cavern area, which is a very different scenario from the iced lake.
3) What are you saying? In a cave, often you CANNOT choose your diving profile because the topology dictates it. If the cave has a sawtooth profile, and you want to dive it, you have no choice.
4) I have no idea of how lines are placed for ice diving; I imagine they are usually far from the bottom, like in the left figure (sorry, I am not an artist). If the line gets broken far from the entrance, the other part may fall towards the bottom if it is negative, like in the figure on the right, or towards the ceiling if positive, or moving around a lot if neutral. In all these scenarios, the usual techniques used in cave diving would be WAY less effective (indeed, in a cave the natural obstacles would stop the line to move around that much, except perhaps in some advanced caves where a lot of experience beyond the standard training is a good idea). What am I missing here?

On the other hand, I can think of many things critical in ice diving but not in caves (thermal protection)
Orda caves in Russia..
There are othe European caves the the cold is a huge problem...
They often use electric heated underwear..

The fact that some caves are cold doesn't mean that all the caves are cold, so in a general cave diving course you will discuss thermal protection but you do not necessarily treat it as a major concern. It's up to the students to seek additional information and/or training if they want to go there.

On the other hand, cold is a serious issue always in ice diving, so it deserves more attention (although I do not know how much).

And I wouldn't be surprised to find other aspects that are specific to ice diving, but since I have never done it, I do not know (this is why I am asking).

navigation
Continuous guide line to the surface.
Compass... and know how to use it.

If a novice asks a cave diver "how do you navigate in a cave?" and the answer is only "Continuous guide line to the surface. Compass... and know how to use it." That novice will understand almost zero of cave diving navigation. Could you give more details?

and emergency procedures are probably very different)
Hmmm. Not really. Underwater problems need to be fixed underwater...

Sure, they need to be fixed underwater. It's just that they can be of different nature. For instance:
- is the no-visibility due to particles (like in cave diving) in the water a common scenario in ice diving?
- is the darkness a serious problem like in cave diving?
- etc.
Again, I do not know the specific issues of ice diving, but you are not mentioning any of them.

Am I wrong? If not, better take a course before going there.
Yes please take a course...
Sounds like you need it.

Recommend reading....

My point was clear. The question was in general - something like "If I am right, it is better to take an ice diving course before going under the ice".

I have another question: what type of cave training do you have? Intro? Full? What else?

{EDIT: I am not sure of how to receive your answer. I see two options:
(1) you believe I am a total novice and I need supervision;
(2) you felt attacked and you are answering a bit aggressively as a consequence.
Well, as I said I have already formal training and I do not need any *cave* course for the type of diving I am doing, maybe I will in the future if I will progress. for sure I will take *ice* diving courses before going under the ice. Regarding the second point, I was sincerely interested in those questions and didn't intend to attack you.}

 

[Gone for diving]

This is a problem, to try to describe every little nuance... I don't type like crazy... so a phone call or come visit is much easier..
Or come diving, I have some spare doubles you can use for free.

If you think caves only can have zero viz ..
Around here its,
runoff, silt, careless fin kick, alge, or plain no reason at all.
But generally vis is better in colder water...

Search pattern...
how do you do one in a cave?
A circle be one way....

The main guide line is the one I am running... it the only one that I have out. And I and holding the reel or behind someone that has the reel.
And have at least one other spool with me and Probably more.

Cave training.... if you mean a piece of plastic, no.
If you mean training as in practical I have dove in caves and done penetration diving, yes

Really cave and ice, wreck or even just plain "safe " diving can kill you.
So pay attention and dive safe.
As I was told,
use the thing between your ears

When in doubt. Yes go get training... but even then make sure you are confident in what you plan to do,
Nobody is an expert. Even experts are learning.
Its more about experience and more experience you have the more problems you will see and figure out and be able to pass on.
Ice diving in France probably will be different than in Canada etc,
Been a mechanic for 30 years and still see some weird things

 

[M-Cameron]

4) I have no idea of how lines are placed for ice diving; I imagine they are usually far from the bottom, like in the left figure (sorry, I am not an artist). If the line gets broken close to the entrance, the other part may fall towards the bottom if it is negative, like in the figure on the right, or towards the ceiling if positive, or moving around a lot if neutral. In all these scenarios, the usual techniques used in cave diving would be WAY less effective (indeed, in a cave the natural obstacles would stop the line to move around that much, except perhaps in some advanced caves where a lot of experience beyond the standard training is a good idea). What am I missing here?

in ice diving, we dont lay lines, the line is attached to your backplate, and the other end is manned by a line tender on the surface who is responsible for communicating with the diver via line tugs, and reeling in and letting out line to keep out the slack.

if the line becomes broken or detached, SOP is for the diver to swim to the "surface" just under the ice and wait there....the safety diver is sent in, and the safety diver runs circular search patterns until he finds the lost diver.

standard length lines for ice divers are usually 100-150 feet......the safety diver is usually on a line 2x that, so assuming you dont swim off in the wrong direction when you detect a broken line, the safety diver will find you.

On the other hand, cold is a serious issue always in ice diving, so it deserves more attention (although I do not know how much).

regarding cold water prep....aside from the obvious thermal protection.....regulators are all "cold water rated" (obviously)....they are sometimes "detuned" to help prevent icing....but the main thing to remember is not to breath from the regs, or use your power inflator when they are not 100% submerged underwater.

bcds are often left unconnected, so as to prevent the possibility of the BC filling uncontrollably in the event of the reg/ power inflator freezing.

Sure, they need to be fixed underwater. It's just that they can be of different nature. For instance:
- is the no-visibility due to particles (like in cave diving) in the water a common scenario in ice diving?
- is the darkness a serious problem like in cave diving?
- etc.
Again, I do not know the specific issues of ice diving, but you are not mentioning any of them.

the ice/ snow on the surface block a lot of the surface light....so its dark.....not pitch black, but lights are needed.

regarding particles....i mean, that just depends on the lake you are diving....some lakes clear up because of less surface action...some lakes are just perpetually murky.

lakes im my area have 5-20' of vis...coupled with the less surface light, it makes it harder to see....not a silt out...but not nice clear tropical water either.

lake bottoms are usually pretty silty, so if you kick any of that up, your vis can easily go to 0

 

[rhwestfall]

The water temps are similar to normal dives below thermoclines here in the Great Lakes. It is the air temperature that can make it interesting. I had one time it was -20f. Felt good to get in 35 degree water to warm up...

 

[ginti]

in ice diving, we dont lay lines, the line is attached to your backplate, and the other end is manned by a line tender on the surface who is responsible for communicating with the diver via line tugs, and reeling in and letting out line to keep out the slack.

if the line becomes broken or detached, SOP is for the diver to swim to the "surface" just under the ice and wait there....the safety diver is sent in, and the safety diver runs circular search patterns until he finds the lost diver.

standard length lines for ice divers are usually 100-150 feet......the safety diver is usually on a line 2x that, so assuming you dont swim off in the wrong direction when you detect a broken line, the safety diver will find you.



regarding cold water prep....aside from the obvious thermal protection.....regulators are all "cold water rated" (obviously)....they are sometimes "detuned" to help prevent icing....but the main thing to remember is not to breath from the regs, or use your power inflator when they are not 100% submerged underwater.

bcds are often left unconnected, so as to prevent the possibility of the BC filling uncontrollably in the event of the reg/ power inflator freezing.




the ice/ snow on the surface block a lot of the surface light....so its dark.....not pitch black, but lights are needed.

regarding particles....i mean, that just depends on the lake you are diving....some lakes clear up because of less surface action...some lakes are just perpetually murky.

lakes im my area have 5-20' of vis...coupled with the less surface light, it makes it harder to see....not a silt out...but not nice clear tropical water either.

lake bottoms are usually pretty silty, so if you kick any of that up, your vis can easily go to 0

Thanks, very detailed.

Regarding novisibility due to particles, if the only problems are the same of any lake (many of my OW dives are in lakes), the situation is absolutely less concerning than inside caves. Don't want to go OT here, but if you want I can explain (but maybe you already know)
Thanks again

 

[M-Cameron]

Thanks, very detailed.

Regarding novisibility due to particles, if the only problems are the same of any lake (many of my OW dives are in lakes), the situation is absolutely less concerning than inside caves. Don't want to go OT here, but if you want I can explain (but maybe you already know)
Thanks again

yeah absolutely no where near the level of vis problems you guys in caves deal with.....just regular garbage lake water problems.

 

[rjack321]

John chatterton has a really good article on a BFK. Stick that into the mud, sand, tie off your second spool. And do your search pattern...

You know you can't feel cave line, even #36 through dry gloves right?

And exactly what pattern are you going to run? a cave is a finite space, in almost every situation there's a ceiling, walls, and a floor. In a lake you may only have a ceiling, the floor being too deep and lacking any walls.

And in many cases there are no "sticks" to tie off to. And even when one exists some lake sediments are so flocculant that they won't hold any stake. Relying on find "something" (wherever you happen to break your line) to secure your safety line in a lake is seriously foolhardy.