"I would have gotten the job -- if I were a woman."

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JulieParkhurst:
My observation is that qualifications are subjective, the idea that one person is more qualified than any other is subjective. How does one determine that someone is more or less qualified? ultimately we all have strengths and weaknesses

Ultimately the parameters encompass more than simply being able to complete some task in the best/shortes/longest/most organized/whatever time or manner!

Remember that someone or some group is in charge of setting goals. To achieve these goals certain things need to take place or certain people need to hold certain positions. Why? because it fits the plan.

Maybe this true in corporate America, but not for the types of jobs we've been discussing. In an environment with leader/supervisors/management and delagated work tasks, your model works fine.

In a moderate to high risk environment as we were pointing out, standards are set and followed to eliminate the very principles you list. These jobs are a task in themselves. Very highly skilled people doing very specific things. There is no group discussion and delegation based on strength or weakness.

For instance, there are two pilots in the plane. They both have the same training, are held to the same standards, and do the same task - fly. No one says, "Grab Mary for this flight because she is good at flying in crappy weather." All pilots have to be good at flying in crappy weather. This is true for dive instructors as well. If you are good at communication, but a poor diver, then maybe the classroom is where you belong. If you are a poor communicator, but a great diver, then the practical side of training is where you belong. However, businesses aren't going to hire someone that can only do one or the other well. They need someone who meets the standards for both communication and dive skills.

Again, in the office, groups may suffice to accomplish a broad range of ever changing goals. In the field, whether it be in combat, under water, in the air, on the sea, or wherever highly specialized people are required, these standards are not subjective, they are most definately finite - worker has the ability or doesn't.
 
JulieParkhurst:
My observation is that qualifications are subjective, the idea that one person is more qualified than any other is subjective. How does one determine that someone is more or less qualified? ultimately we all have strengths and weaknesses

----yes july you are right but tell me who is cabable of making an uncontestable objective decision. the best that can be done is to evaluate the task determine the skills needed and test to see who posesses those attributes. to reduce the skill requirements for thee sake of diversity is only valid if the hazzard is reduced also. if you need to be 5'6 175 pounds or greater to be a fireman then the 5 foot 140 pounders are cut from the list. if you cant pull a hose up 4 flights of stairs in less than a minute your cut from the program.

Ultimately the parameters encompass more than simply being able to complete some task in the best/shortes/longest/most organized/whatever time or manner!

----right again but you have to be able to do the minimum requirements of the job before you can go above and beyond. in the service we called it work she may but shine she must. if thats confusing it ment simply that if an inspector saw things shine, he will assume that it works. so dont worry about working just make things shine.

All to often people argue ideals rather than realities. its kind of like people who smoke pointing to the one person who smoked 5 packs a day and lived to 110 years old, that person is one in ten million. the majority of people who smoke that much will surely die of lung cancer or related disease at a much younger age.

----right again and it is those people that get the atttention and some how bring about one of 2 ends. 1. if it was dangerous it would affect all people. the 110 yo is therefore proof that is not that dangerous. 2. you cant prove they would live longer if they did not smoke. everyone knows both statements lack foundation and reason, but the legal system is not based on reason. the problem with 1. is that the 110yo is used to shoot a hole in the hypothisis that smoking is dangerous in that all fit in the average smoker model. in 2. it is a negative hypothisys that can not be proved because it can not be reconstructed once the other dicision has been made. try the statement if gore was pres things would be different. true but a bogus stqtement just the same. ask what would be different and there are no facts to support the answer, only guesses. that is why you cant substantiate a neative. most movements rely heavly on making charges founded on negative what if's. here is another we would be better off if the usa did not have nuc weapons. or the future would be much different if we had no nucs. nice utopic answers but how different how much better. what no considreation that things may be worse... that does not support the cause.

Sorry for getting carried away there but the reality is that often to qualify for a job that ultimately fits with the end goals of any organization the gender of a given indivudule may need to be included.

---agree 100% i certainly would not want my daughter in a phys ed class with a male instructor. no more than i would want a female instructor presiding over my sons pe class. or boys in the girl scouts and vice-versa. gender should make no real difference in the feild but considering the locker room responsibilities, it is. those who push the gender neutral position do not talk about non feild environments or the comfort of the student's when claiming discrimination. only the utopic issues.

----why is it that when you watch the news there are no all men news teams. but there are all women ones. that is agenda at work in an environment that has 0 effect on the accuracy of the news. its only a power game being played. like the women football anouncer's. another barrier broke down....though in autopic world it should make no difference in reality it does. just as a unisex restroom should be ok but in reality things just dont flow right.

As I said in an earlier post. The reason for this is most likely un developed market. If what it takes to tap this market is the use of women in key positions to make other women/females feel more comfortable, then gender becomes part of the job qualifications and.... While not politically correct to admit it is often a reality.

---i hope you are right about the market issue. but if the reason is to make other females feel more confortable sugggests that they are too frail to confront training given by a male. i would suggest that if that was the case, and the presure is too great unless a woman is instructing , they should take up needlepoint and skip scuba. fraility and indecisiveness unlike my spelling is not a positive trait in underwater survival.

What I am saying here is simply this, At times the visual and emotional needs of the market need to be considered and in the terms of Scuba Instruction (highly visible and key in promotion of the industry) this is undeniably true.

---only so long as it is not done at the expense of quality training and safety which is what every one keeps talking about. so its gone full circle.

i am not sure how much i have reinforced or contradicted your your opinions but there it is. i hope it is 50/50.

kws
 
JulieParkhurst:
My observation is that qualifications are subjective, the idea that one person is more qualified than any other is subjective. How does one determine that someone is more or less qualified? ultimately we all have strengths and weaknesses

Ultimately the parameters encompass more than simply being able to complete some task in the best/shortes/longest/most organized/whatever time or manner!

Remember that someone or some group is in charge of setting goals. To achieve these goals certain things need to take place or certain people need to hold certain positions. Why? because it fits the plan.

I think Mempilot did a good job qualifying it in his previous post. However, if you want a specific example from me, I'll provide one. My job often requires the ability to lift things weighing in excess of 35lbs and often lift them over your head. This is sometimes also done while balancing on a ladder.

Our company has no "light duty" positions. Everyone is expected to be able to meet these requirements for their job. I can think of at least 3 instances where employees were hurt (either on the job or outside) and that injury prevented them from doing this over the long term, and they were subsequently let go.

However I have repeatedly seen people hired who could not meet these requirements. I've worked with some women who could carry their load and then some. Same is true for some men. I've also seen some who couldnt.

I've also seen women passed over for a job they were qualified for because there were already too many women in the cultural mix. Instead, a man without anywhere near the same training and experience was given the job which he subsequently did poorly and was terminated.

Qualifications may be subjective. But when diversity considerations enter into the picture it tends to overshadow the subjectivity.
 
john

Qualifications may be subjective. But when diversity considerations enter into the picture it tends to overshadow the subjectivity.


thats is as accurate as it comes

keith
 
My new job took me into the situation where I am the only female in a department of around 40 male colleagues. I was the only female out of 10 interviewee's. I guess you could say from those statistics that I was best best person for the job. I would be mortified of i only got the job because I am female. I guess my qualifications and super personality(?!) won me the job I now adore. And just for the record I love working with my male colleagues and I am treated as a lady by all and am respected a great deal. Respect goes both ways and I enjoy being part of the team. I wouldnt have it any other way.
 
wapyaly:
My new job took me into the situation where I am the only female in a department of around 40 male colleagues. I was the only female out of 10 interviewee's. I guess you could say from those statistics that I was best best person for the job. I would be mortified of i only got the job because I am female. I guess my qualifications and super personality(?!) won me the job I now adore. And just for the record I love working with my male colleagues and I am treated as a lady by all and am respected a great deal. Respect goes both ways and I enjoy being part of the team. I wouldnt have it any other way.

wapyaly,

I'm sure your the best person for the job. Personality is a big bonus in hiring a candidate based on ability. The best person for the job is not always the best person for the group. Your lucky to have found a job that you love so much. Some work for the check, and not for the love of what they do. I'm fortunate as well.

Diver's tend to make great teammates!

mempilot
 
diverrick:
As Mempliot mentioned, there are some jobs that you can get killed if you have the wrong person working with you. 1977, my first year out of High school, I got a job working as a seasonal firefighter for California Dept. of Forestry (was called a Division, back then) They were hiring minorities, openly seeking out people to hire based on race and/or gender. We had a female, who could not do the job. She could not pull fire hose, carry a heavy backpack of gear, or pulll the rest of us out of harms way if we needed help. she got the same pay as the rest of us, and did half of the work.
We had to carry her load all summer long. We were not allowed to complain about it either. She was assigned all the "soft" jobs around the station and on the fire jobs, while the rest of us grunts broke our backs cutting firelines, humping hose up cliffs, etc. SNIPPED

That may have been so then Rick but that was then...this is now. All applicants have to pass the same physical test including the ladder lift, hose drag etc etc. It wasn't 'dumbed down' to make it easier for females to pass either. There are plenty from both genders that fail (GULP...can you tell I'm getting ready to try it myself? lol)

It is how it should be.
 
That may have been so then Rick but that was then...this is now. All applicants have to pass the same physical test including the ladder lift, hose drag etc etc. It wasn't 'dumbed down' to make it easier for females to pass either.

Here also Aquabella. Men and Women must "run" the same agility test and pass the same knowledge test. In the arena of pre-hospital care, there isn't a test for men and one for women either! If you don't cut it....you just don't cut it!

Good luck and make us proud!
 
Some time ago for fun and to add to my lifes experiences I graduated with an A grade average, took honors in the physical fitness competitions and took honors of top shooter in the combat pistol competition at a police academy in SoCal. The more we got screamed at by the tactical officers the more fun I had. I amused myself and class members frequently by using veiled humor to put the tactical officers back on the spot even better then vice versa all without deviating from decorum or rules of conduct, and even they appreciated that cleverness when I got them good. Man, that stuff was funny....I had an absolute blast and have the fondest of memories of the good people there and times.

The year prior, I clearly remember that if you were privileged with female genitalia, by sole virtue of such, you were entitled to be paid at taxpayer expense to engage in physical fitness training at the LA Police Academy prior to applying for police recruit position. Forget if you were a fat, unqualified lard-ass, you got paid for your contempt and laziness in refusing to research the entrance level fitness requirements and be prepared to pass them like males had to.

Now if you were lucky enough to be a race anything other then Caucasian, if you were such a complete and utter idiot totally incapabale of filling out a job application for LAPD recruit, well, at taxpayer expense, you were entitled to free training to teach you how to fill out job applications to secure a position to carry a semi-automatic pistol holding 15 rounds of ammo and a 12 guage shotgun.

In Ventura, I remember the Ventura Fire Department ran ads in the newspapers for entry level firemen positions that came right out and said if you are a Caucasian male, do not apply.

Back to the police academy, we graduated about 62 recruits out of a class of 105 or so. Out of those 62 graduating recruits, about 5 should have been cops as they had the right temperament, restraint, level headedness yet ability to act decisively when the situation arose. One of those happened to be a woman. She was a dimunitive thing, although athletic, and she was exceptionally bright. I always liked that in a woman....What she lacked in brute physical strength, she made up for with superior tactics and quick thinking, which goes to the previous poster who inferred what one lacks in one department can be made up elsewhere.

Another woman who graduated who should not have was hired by Santa Monica P.D. Some Adam Henry scumbag type decided to shoot it out with the cops, so she decides to abandon her partner and all the other backup officers present and run and jump into the passenger side of the patrol car, ball up and attempt to hide in the footwell, all during which the remainder of the fine city employees performed their civic duty by ventilating the perpetrator to save taxpayer funds.

In fairness to even handedness, we had one cretin who claimed he was part of a cypher (encrypted code) protection detail with the Marines and while stationed in Germany, got in a firefight with the largest known communist terrorist organization there during a detail. I found it odd I was aware of the Red Army Faction also known as the Bader-Meinhoff Gang but he wasn't, which was the name of the organization he claims he got into a firefight with. It is something that would not escape me had I been there. That was clue #1. South Gate PD fired him within several months after they found out the only military he had been is was Walter Mitty's Secret Army.

We had one idiot in our class try to rape a female hitchiker halfway through the academy using his academy firearm while he was wearing his PT gear with his last name stenciled on both front and back. Makes you feel all warm, secure and cozy about police I am sure.

Thinking about our resident commercial pilot here, I am aware of a female commercial pilot who was so utterly negligent, she crashed her jet and killed a bunch of passengers. Rather then villifying her like Captain Hazelwood of the Exxon Valdez, her identify was protected, and she was given taxpayer funded grief counseling where HER grief was focused upon as her homicidal negligence was ignore.

For my firm I head up, once I asked the LA Times if I could run an ad that said "Heterosexual Christian Caucasian Males Encouraged to Apply" just as parody of the radical, Caucasian hating, misandristic left.

Perhaps I should ask the ACLU if they can enjoin me in a lawsuit against the NBA because Vietnamese men and women are underepresented....

As to PADI, if society were rid of the BS ticky-tack suits against males and Caucasians for gender and race discrimination, then in my opinion, I think it is good business for a dive certification business to hire races and genders that facilitate them tapping into newer markets ala women. It is smart business, although currently if a Caucasian and or male does that, it is called ugly, sexist, racist discrimination and worthy of a lawsuit against the "good ol boys club".

The best person for the job, regardless of race or gender in my opinion. If that means all Nepalese female Sherpas, so be it.
 
Thanks MsParamedic, I'll do my best! :)

Dave, I can't help but notice you sound more than a little bitter. The stories you tell above just confirm that you can be a boob no matter what gender. Like you say, there are horror stories on both sides. I hope you don't let this stuff taint your view of women who are in these types of professions in general.

I know it isn't fair sometimes. A woman may get picked over a man in certain circumstances because of some 'quota'. In my view a quota can work the other way too. I'm sure departments want to take the minimum amount of women they have to. So they could be 'full' for all I know when I apply. All I know, around here, you have to have the same basic standards as the guys. No one is helping me in any special way.

The thing is, life isn't fair right? It's what you make it. I know full well if I make the department I will have extra challenges that your average guy recruit wouldn't have just as far as attitudes and having to go the extra mile to prove myself. That doesn't bother me. That's why I'm making damn sure I know what I'm doing before I get there. No short cuts for me...

Paula :)
 
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