I Want to hear about Reg. Failures. Got any stories?

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If regulators were real life support then there would be a certification required to work on them?

I work on life support regularly, if an engine quits running or a wing falls off or a propeller goes away on it's own then pilots and passengers tend to get upset. When I complete a job I sign it off with the authority that goes with the A&P/IA. Who exactly guarantees with a legally required signature that the retail dive business clerk knows anything at all about regulators? Bicycle mechanics go to school or apprentice, who exactly trains dive equipment "mechanics" and I use that word dishonorably in that regard as they are unworthy of the title, mechanic.

N
 
Rick,

Scubapro did the same thing very briefly on some early S600's and G250HP's by incorporating a balance chamber that removed all pressure on the seat when the reg was not pressurized. They discontinued the practice after a very short period of time and reverted to the older regular balance chamber.

SP went that route to keep up with Atomic (Apparently viewed as important at the time given the defection of SP engineers to form Atomic) but Atomic has stayed with the practice despite the greater complication and many potential downsides of having the system open any time the reg is un pressurized.

If regulators were real life support then there would be a certification required to work on them?

I work on life support regularly, if an engine quits running or a wing falls off or a propeller goes away on it's own then pilots and passengers tend to get upset. When I complete a job I sign it off with the authority that goes with the A&P/IA. Who exactly guarantees with a legally required signature that the retail dive business clerk knows anything at all about regulators? Bicycle mechanics go to school or apprentice, who exactly trains dive equipment "mechanics" and I use that word dishonorably in that regard as they are unworthy of the title, mechanic.
I agree the average scuba tech may not even know how to properly use tools let alone understand how regulators operate. I have seen some techs in training classes that are just plain scary.

On the other hand, it is pretty hard to make a living soley as a reg tech so it is hard to require someone to spend a year or two in a training course - and reg repair is frankly no where near as complex as what is needed and required for an A&P rating.

On the other hand, some aircraft mechanics leave a lot to be desired as well.

I lost oil pressure in the right engine of a Seneca because a mechanic left a pocket knife on top of the oil cooler. Obviously it violated the "never leave a tool in the engine" rule - but I can see where it could be easily missed as there was no "spot" for it in the tool box. Still, we had words when I got back.

Another mechanic reversed the ailerons in a Bonanza (an admittedly hard plane to work on by GA/single engine standards.) I discovered that during a control check. More words were had back at the hangar.

I had a really badly rigged Citabria try to hop off the edge of the runway on takeoff. It had been re-engined with an 0-360 for banner towing and rather than change the incidence of the vertical fin (admittedly a major pain), they just increased the incidence on the left wing, which promptly stalled as soon as you added back pressure on a soft field/short field takeoff. Being young and stupid I did about three take offs playing test pilot with it to see how slow I could lift it off without without things getting interesting. It had a VMC well above the normal stall speed for months until they got around to fixing it. It was fun to watch other pilots fly it for the first time, as everyone wanted to see how much difference the extra 30 hp made on a short field take-off so everyone who flew it tried to lift it off at mnimum airspeed on their first take-off. We were a cruel bunch.

Finally, I had the stabilator trim stick in the full up position on a Warrior right after an annual inspection. That is a close as I ever came to dying in an aircraft and my arms hurt for a week. I never found out exactly what caused that.

In contrast, reg repair on the other hand seldom kills anyone even when done badly. Most often the problem is tuning it a bit light, with a mild freeflow resulting. Less common are leaks and problems with regs that are just worn out and or new parts that are not quite right (leaky poppet, etc) and again the problem is normally a less than catatrophic leak.

Rarely you will get a failure to deliver gas type of failure. I have only had one of those ever occur on a reg I worked on and it occurred with an older R109 where the lever slipped off the poppet during the first dive after the rebuild requiring a switch to an octo. It tested fine on the bench after service and after it failed once the poppet was reseated. The lever looked fine, but I replaced it anyway as I suspect it just had too much flex in the arms and or a lack of sufficient tension keeping the arms together.

In either case, a good aircraft mechanic or a good reg tech are worth knowing and holding on to.
 
But, in the case of the mechanic who lost hs pocket knife he may go to jail or suffer a fine, there are potential repurcussions, in the case of the retail diver store clerk moonlighting as a regulator repairman, he probably just gets a new job at Burger King or maybe gets promoted to instructor.

Sounds like you need to do some upgrading of the "airplane" people you hang with to me, :wink:.

N
 
This wasn't a failure, per se, or rather I guess you could call it a failure, just not a gear failure. My girlfriend, my Instructor, and I all went to dive Devil's Den this weekend. This is a spring/sinkhole in Central Florida. There are a few cave entrances there, but you only need OW cert to dive the main area. My instructor and I were gearing up for our second dive when the woman, who runs the campground, called my instructor, and sent a confused looking man our way. This man was holding a reg (seen the brand once before, but I can't remember it offhand, looks like a dive-rite knockoff) and saying there was some air leaking from his second stage. My instructor takes a look at it, asks me to get my tools. He discovered a couple of things wrong.
1) The hose was HAND-TIGHTENED onto both the first and second stage.
We hooked this up to a tank, and still there were leaks. So, we took it apart and...
2) There were no o-rings on his hoses!!! The man expalined that he thought that was something you removed when you got new hoses....
We got him fixed up.....and sent him on his way.
That whole experience scared me a little. Luckily, he had miffed it up enough to be obviously wrong at the surface. That could have been a bad day if he had hit the water first.
Oh, and for anyone keeping score out there....he was PADI trained. :catfight:
 
I have an Atomic M1 that gave me trouble as a deco reg. Actually, as fine of reg that it is, I did discover a design flaw if used for deco bottles in cold water.

Because of the reverse poppet, when the reg is off, water can flow back into the first stage. Even though you should charge your reg before you descend, it's possible for the pressure to be released from the second stage, and then water can flow into the first stage. Then, when you turn on the reg and begin to breath from it, the water in the first stage can freeze and cause a free flow. Or in my case, sputtering, and complete reg failure.

I experienced this several times. I didn't know what the problem was, so I had it rebuilt. The problem happened again, so the dealer replaced it with a new one. It happened again, and I called Atomic, and they confirmed that this could happen due to the reverse poppet. They suggested to charge the reg now and then during the dive, if used on a deco bottle. I do this, and turn down the 2nd stage and I haven't had the issue since - but what a pain. If anyone wants to trade my M1 for a MK17 or an XTX50, let me know!
[/QUOTE]

That's interesting how a change to improve the reg resulted in unforseen consequences. It does seem wasteful though to use an expensive regulator on a deco bottle? I'd be inclined to put an inexpensive regulator for deco, since it's shallow anyway and you're just floating and waiting. (I'm not a tech diver)

Adam
 
I'll take the middle ground on deco regs. Expensive or inexpensive is not the issue, bullet proof reliability is. If your deco reg dies, your deco gets complicated at best and at worst you get bent.

I have in the past used Scubapro Mk 3's and Mk 200's with R109 or G250 second stages - inexpensive but very reliable.

I currently use Mk 9's amd Mk 10's with G250 second stages - still comparatively inexpensive but very reliable and they offer good performance.
 
...snip here and there...

On the other hand, some aircraft mechanics leave a lot to be desired as well....
In either case, a good aircraft mechanic or a good reg tech are worth knowing and holding on to.


A good mechanic always has extra parts after completing a job. :wink:

OK, I'll reluctantly fess up.

About 30 years ago, I did my first DIY regulator service. It was a metal Dacor that had a slight free flow. I opened it up to see how complicated it might be and discovered it was a very simple device. I realized that I could just flip the soft seat and reinstall everything the way it was. Well, it worked just fine for the first half of the next day's dive so into the cavern my buddy and I went. Then the regulator began to free flow just a bit so I took it out of my gob to have a look at it. Next came a more pronounced free flow. In the gin clear waters of Manatee Springs or Jenny or one of those death traps I saw with my then young eyes the problem. The second stage was rotating on the end of the hose -similar to the one in the aforementioned video. Hmmm, just rotate it back into place, exit the cavern, find a tool and torque it down©åSounds like a plan, but rotating it back to where the free flow stopped, then putting it back in my mouth over rotated it to where the hard and soft seats mated too firmly. At this point I got no air from it at all.

Now this was before octopuses, safe second, etc were "standard" pieces of gear so giving my buddy the standard signal for out air (grab your buddy by the fin and jerk very hard) we buddy breathed a few cycles which gave me the time to hand tighten the jam nut and hose enough to make an exit with my buddy close by.

This old metal Dacor has a combination air inlet/orifice that screwed into the air barrel. So after installing the poppet, spring and lever you install the inlet fitting, adjust the cracking pressure, torque down the jam nut, then torque down the hose. You guessed it... I missed the jam nut step and that's why the housing started to unscrew from the fitting.

Lesson learned? I hope so.

couv
 
A good mechanic always has extra parts after completing a job. :wink:

OK, I'll reluctantly fess up.

About 30 years ago, I did my first DIY regulator service. It was a metal Dacor that had a slight free flow. I opened it up to see how complicated it might be and discovered it was a very simple device. I realized that I could just flip the soft seat and reinstall everything the way it was. Well, it worked just fine for the first half of the next day's dive so into the cavern my buddy and I went. Then the regulator began to free flow just a bit so I took it out of my gob to have a look at it. Next came a more pronounced free flow. In the gin clear waters of Manatee Springs or Jenny or one of those death traps I saw with my then young eyes the problem. The second stage was rotating on the end of the hose -similar to the one in the aforementioned video. Hmmm, just rotate it back into place, exit the cavern, find a tool and torque it down©åSounds like a plan, but rotating it back to where the free flow stopped, then putting it back in my mouth over rotated it to where the hard and soft seats mated too firmly. At this point I got no air from it at all.

Now this was before octopuses, safe second, etc were "standard" pieces of gear so giving my buddy the standard signal for out air (grab your buddy by the fin and jerk very hard) we buddy breathed a few cycles which gave me the time to hand tighten the jam nut and hose enough to make an exit with my buddy close by.

This old metal Dacor has a combination air inlet/orifice that screwed into the air barrel. So after installing the poppet, spring and lever you install the inlet fitting, adjust the cracking pressure, torque down the jam nut, then torque down the hose. You guessed it... I missed the jam nut step and that's why the housing started to unscrew from the fitting.

Lesson learned? I hope so.

couv


You are talking about a Dacor Olympic regulator. I liked the way you adjusted the second stage. There was no need for an inline adjustment tool (actually there were no inline adjustment tools at the time that I ever saw).

Those are/were great regulators.
 
You are talking about a Dacor Olympic regulator....Those are/were great regulators.

Huh. I have one of those. A Dacor Olympic from the early 70s (I think it's an Olympic 400). My father gave it to me the same time he gave me his old MK5.

You think anybody out there can still service one of those Dacors? I've never even tried to use it... it's about 9 years older than my MK5 and hasn't been serviced in about 30 years. I keep it mainly as a conversation piece, but if it could be cleaned up to serviceability... hmm.
 
The extra parts are for next time, of course.

Anything can fail and modern regulators are largely made from plastic and have a high parts count. I doubt there have been any valid MTF studies.

I don't think a regulator becomes life support until there is overhead between you and the surface (which includes deco) but unfortunately most of these products are not actually differentiated from one another and are mostly just the same parts rearranged. N
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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