I wanna do it all
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I am a great GUE fan, which will not come as any surprise to anybody who's been on SB more than a week . . . I love the standardization and the seamless fit of GUE-trained divers, for deep or long dives, or just reef jaunts. And I also think it's important to take ANY technical training from people who are routinely doing the kind of diving they are teaching. But just because somebody is known for doing huge dives, doesn't necessarily make them a superb instructor, especially for lower or beginning levels. To learn beginning cave diving, you need somebody who can teach -- who has the right mixture of patience and high standards, and who can inspire the student.
When you get to the project level, you need mentoring from people who ARE doing those dives. Before that, you need a good teacher.
When you get to the project level, you need mentoring from people who ARE doing those dives. Before that, you need a good teacher.
PfcAJ
Contributor
When I first got into diving it took about 6 months to decide what direction I wanted to go and set a goal. That was in early 2005. Being a lifelong history buff, with a grandfather that I idolized who served in the navy in WWII, wreck diving was a more or less natural choice. After making that decision every dive and every course was done with that in mind. Every equipment choice, some of them wrong and on the advice of an instructor, was made with wreck diving in mind. My goal was to be on the Andrea Doria in 2010. However my late wife's muscular dystrophy accelerated in 2008 and the next two years was spent making sure she was happy. She passed in 2010 and the Doria goal lost its luster. I did a reset and decided to focus on quality dives I could do and on teaching. As it stands now I have the skills to do that dive but lack the trimix cert and the extra knowledge that goes with it. I also have debts and day to day responsibilities to take care of. This year however is shaping up to be a very good year student wise. So that trimix cert may get bumped up. If I can also do enough dives that warrant it. For now my helitrox gets me to 170 or so. I'm ok with that for the Great Lakes dives I've done.
What does all this mean? To me a great deal. To others perhaps nothing. Other than trying to illustrate how plans and goals can change. How it is not a bad thing to pick a discipline early and works towards one thing rather than many different ones. Especially if you don't really have the resources to work towards more than one at a time. While caves and wrecks have similarities there are important differences. Some great enough that overlooking them can get one into serious trouble. It's not a race.
What does all this mean? To me a great deal. To others perhaps nothing. Other than trying to illustrate how plans and goals can change. How it is not a bad thing to pick a discipline early and works towards one thing rather than many different ones. Especially if you don't really have the resources to work towards more than one at a time. While caves and wrecks have similarities there are important differences. Some great enough that overlooking them can get one into serious trouble. It's not a race.
Ommision just give it up my friend, no sense in arguing, you will just go back and forth until someone gives up. All cave divers know the story of NSS/CDS, NACD whether they want to admit it or not or at least I would hope they do! Every GUE diver I have met believes they stand above everyone else not to say all of them are like that though! To each their own I guess! All 3 are very fine agencies but I do not know the name of one GUE instructor but know quite a few NSS/CDS, NACD though! It's what we dive so that's what we know. I think of it as NSS/CDS, NACD are the bigger agencies that have been around longer so some of the GUE guys believe they are better than the rest and think NSS/CDS, NACD are not up to par with their standards and skills! It goes along with some of the SSI and NAUI guys bashing PADI because it is the larger agency and more recognizable so they believe they are more exclusive and thus better and more skillful divers. To the OP, Not about the agency, it's about the instructor!!
OP
swimmer_spe
Contributor
When I first took up diving, it was because I wanted to dive the Great Barrier Reef. I still want to.
Now that I know what I do about what is out there, I really do not want any limitations, except for how long my gas will last.
Now that I know what I do about what is out there, I really do not want any limitations, except for how long my gas will last.
No its a lousy analogy. The people who charted the very practices of safe cave diving WERE the NSS and NACD long long long before there WAS a GUE. Who came up with those nifty redundancy ideas, rule of thirds, guidelines and reels? GUE - NO.
You can drink all the cool-aid you want and it wont change the reality but being slavish to one's ideology is always dangerous to true learning.
Saying "well winchester made a repeating rifle in 1845 so now in 2014 I wouldnt want one because I have a tec 9 ready to go...." actually THIS is a bad analogy because I would want the winchester on many levels but maybe not in a modern firefight- but that's a whole different thread.... mods feel free to take that to the guns section....
Anyway...If you want training you go to an instructor.
If you want to explore you go to an explorer.
But generally - those are not one to one corollaries- not all instructors explore nor all explorers teach. And being good or even great at one does not make you good at the other. Some skill sets overlap- some do not.
Hubris - for example- is not a good characteristic for a cave instructor... in fact its a really bad one. I'm sure you can find the analogy there.
I defy you to name one cave diver with more experience than Jim Wyatt who charted underground lakes when GUE wasnt even the dna in its future founders, or a better model of perfect technique, discipline, and intestinal fortitude amongst cave divers then Edd Sorenson.
And as I said before there are many many many famous NACD and NSSCDS cave divers of repute.... the GUE lists don't come close. Maybe someday in the future- but not today. And today is where our discussion is happening.
Im off to drink the Jack... much better than cool-aid....
You can drink all the cool-aid you want and it wont change the reality but being slavish to one's ideology is always dangerous to true learning.
Saying "well winchester made a repeating rifle in 1845 so now in 2014 I wouldnt want one because I have a tec 9 ready to go...." actually THIS is a bad analogy because I would want the winchester on many levels but maybe not in a modern firefight- but that's a whole different thread.... mods feel free to take that to the guns section....
Anyway...If you want training you go to an instructor.
If you want to explore you go to an explorer.
But generally - those are not one to one corollaries- not all instructors explore nor all explorers teach. And being good or even great at one does not make you good at the other. Some skill sets overlap- some do not.
Hubris - for example- is not a good characteristic for a cave instructor... in fact its a really bad one. I'm sure you can find the analogy there.
I defy you to name one cave diver with more experience than Jim Wyatt who charted underground lakes when GUE wasnt even the dna in its future founders, or a better model of perfect technique, discipline, and intestinal fortitude amongst cave divers then Edd Sorenson.
And as I said before there are many many many famous NACD and NSSCDS cave divers of repute.... the GUE lists don't come close. Maybe someday in the future- but not today. And today is where our discussion is happening.
Im off to drink the Jack... much better than cool-aid....
PfcAJ
Contributor
If you're not aware of what GUE guys have done cave diving it's because you're not paying attention.
Longest underwater cave a bunch of times (chips, cathedral, wakulla, chips, wakulla in that order, iirc) longest US underwater cave (that record still holds), ridiculous dives at Roubidoux, the EKPP stuff, the dives down in Mexico with MCEP. All being done by GUE divers , instructors, or guys using the same methods as taught in GUE cave classes.
If you're not up to date on that stuff then I don't know what to tell you. These guys really have a ton of experience with deep/long caves. It's tough to argue with that.
---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 11:13 PM ----------
well, talk to the guys who've done 14 hr BOTTOM TIMES at 270'.
Longest underwater cave a bunch of times (chips, cathedral, wakulla, chips, wakulla in that order, iirc) longest US underwater cave (that record still holds), ridiculous dives at Roubidoux, the EKPP stuff, the dives down in Mexico with MCEP. All being done by GUE divers , instructors, or guys using the same methods as taught in GUE cave classes.
If you're not up to date on that stuff then I don't know what to tell you. These guys really have a ton of experience with deep/long caves. It's tough to argue with that.
---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 11:13 PM ----------
well, talk to the guys who've done 14 hr BOTTOM TIMES at 270'.
I'll agree that the NACD and NSSCDS did set the standard. But they are also the agencies with little or no oversight that led to so many instructors doing a poor job. For example, you basically lost all your clout in your post when you listed TJ Johnson as one of the greats. None of his students that I've ever met could pass my Cavern Class, let alone full cave. That's not picking on TJ, it's just the way it is. His students have come to me, and not once did anyone pass without serious remedial training. I've never seen an Ed student, but I have seen Ed in the water. He's was of the best cave divers I've ever witnessed. Hopefully that translates into good students. But I can't attest either way.
As many of you know, I've done A LOT of teaching with Jim Wyatt. I've never witnessed a bad student. I'm sure they are out there, just as I know there is a student with my name on his card that I'm not completely proud of (but it's the only one, and I never issue cards of students I'm not proud of anymore) But what's my point? I'm not sure yet. Let's see if this comes full circle.
I believe that there are a few really great instructors. They are great in that they can convey how to dive safely as an entry level cave diver. Can they teach you to lay line, exit a cave, survive. Yup. And they do a really good job at it. But that's not where diving ends. When's the last time Johnny Richards did a dive for fun to 10k feet at Manatee. Has he ever done it? When's the last time Jim swam to 6000' at Madison? It's a trick question. Jim has never swam through Rocky Horror. That doesn't take away from their ability to teach you core skills to becoming a great cave diver. There's no question that despite all the crap that follows Jim around, he puts out good divers.
But where does that leave us? Well, I can tell you this.... I've NEVER met a crappy GUE Instructor. I've NEVER had a GUE student come to me for full cave and need remedial anything. Their buoyancy, trim, propulsion, status in the water was spot on EVERY single time. Can I say that about any other single agency (even my own agency)? NOPE.
And about GUE's hubris. I believe they have made a real effort to eliminate that persona. Surely it's not perfect. It's certainly not gone completely. And frankly there are still some arsehats who believe in the old ways of doing things. But I still remember to this day the time David Rhea of GUE spent
30+ minutes explaining the ins and outs of the RB80 to me, an IANTD instructor, as friendly and as patiently as could be.
---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 11:21 PM ----------
Omission -- You know Jim hasn't really done much in the way of exploration right? Has he been to the end of the line in Manatee, Ginnie, Madison, Little River, Indian?
I like Jim Wyatt, and he's an awesome instructor, but you got your facts wrong if you think he's laid a bunch of line anywhere. Jim is an educator. He's never been an explorer by most people's measure. Sure he was here in the very beginning, then moved away for a long time, then moved back about a decade ago. If you want to know who really did the exploration, call people like JJ, Mark Long, Bill Rennaker, etc. Jim's name isn't on the map because he wasn't there for it.
But, I'll answer your question...
Bill Rennaker, Tom Mount, Paul Heinerth, Jill Heinerth, Jarrod Joblonski,
And sure, JJ became a cave instructor in 1990, but that's still before Jim Wyatt came back from his hiatus at the ocean.
moody s
Contributor
There are plenty of good cave instructors out there, spread out over several agencies, GUE included. I am not a GUE certified diver and even I'm sick of people trotting out the "they think they're better than everyone else" crap. Maybe 20 years ago, but GI3 has been out of the scene a long time, and regardless of what people may think of him from an attitude perspective if you think you are anywhere near capable of doing what he did underwater you are deluded. I've met lots of GUE divers at various cave sites in the US and Mexico, never once have I encountered any kind of attitude. They are usually the nicest most helpful bunch around. I've shared pontoon boats on the millpond with them and had conversations about their configurations and never once have a gotten a dogmatic response. It's always been "we do it like this because of xyz". I've never once had someone tell me their way is better than my way, I've had them tell their way works best for them, and there is far more flexibility to GUE than you might think. There is no koolaid being passed around. If their way of doing it doesn't work for you then don't do it but enough with making it seem like they think they are better than everyone else.
As to naming a cave instructor with as much experience as Jim Wyatt, please, there are plenty, just off the top of my head, Paul Heinerth, Mel Clark, David Rhea, Jarrod Jablonski, Danny Riordan, Patrick Widmam, Steve Boegarts, Bil Phillips. I will not apologize for missing people from this list because that's my point, lots of good instructors out there, some of whom Im sure I've never even heard of. These are all all excellent instructors, all have extensive experience not just in exploration and pushing systems, but also in innovating equipment. Some are GUE and some aren't, find an instructor that best fits your learning style and what you want to accomplish. Now, I defy you to walk into CCDS or CA and have either Jim or Edd say the above mentioned instructors are no good.
As to naming a cave instructor with as much experience as Jim Wyatt, please, there are plenty, just off the top of my head, Paul Heinerth, Mel Clark, David Rhea, Jarrod Jablonski, Danny Riordan, Patrick Widmam, Steve Boegarts, Bil Phillips. I will not apologize for missing people from this list because that's my point, lots of good instructors out there, some of whom Im sure I've never even heard of. These are all all excellent instructors, all have extensive experience not just in exploration and pushing systems, but also in innovating equipment. Some are GUE and some aren't, find an instructor that best fits your learning style and what you want to accomplish. Now, I defy you to walk into CCDS or CA and have either Jim or Edd say the above mentioned instructors are no good.
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