Except of course the fact the NACD and NSSCDS have been doing it longer. Basically set the standards. And generally are the cert agencies found in both Florida and Mexicos caves more often.
this is the hubris that turns so many people off of DIR/GUE and occasionally other agencies that play the "we're the greatst bestest training by far" trumpet.
Ill take Jim Wyatt or Edd Sorrenson over just about any other instructor teaching Cave- and guess what neither are GUE. There are also other great instructors like Reggie Ross, TJ Johnson, Johnny Richards... The list goes on and on that are NOT instructors for GUE but among the best Cave instructors your gonna find.
gue is solid training. It is not by any measure "where it's at".
---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 11:53 AM ----------
Your bailout is a 40... In OC your deco bottle may be a 40.... It's part of the "what you don't know yet" about Tec and Cave diving. Talking to an instructor can be useful in figuring out gear requirements....
I'll agree that the NACD and NSSCDS did set the standard. But they are also the agencies with little or no oversight that led to so many instructors doing a poor job. For example, you basically lost all your clout in your post when you listed TJ Johnson as one of the greats. None of his students that I've ever met could pass my Cavern Class, let alone full cave. That's not picking on TJ, it's just the way it is. His students have come to me, and not once did anyone pass without serious remedial training. I've never seen an Ed student, but I have seen Ed in the water. He's was of the best cave divers I've ever witnessed. Hopefully that translates into good students. But I can't attest either way.
As many of you know, I've done A LOT of teaching with Jim Wyatt. I've never witnessed a bad student. I'm sure they are out there, just as I know there is a student with my name on his card that I'm not completely proud of (but it's the only one, and I never issue cards of students I'm not proud of anymore) But what's my point? I'm not sure yet. Let's see if this comes full circle.
I believe that there are a few really great instructors. They are great in that they can convey how to dive safely as an entry level cave diver. Can they teach you to lay line, exit a cave, survive. Yup. And they do a really good job at it. But that's not where diving ends. When's the last time Johnny Richards did a dive for fun to 10k feet at Manatee. Has he ever done it? When's the last time Jim swam to 6000' at Madison? It's a trick question. Jim has never swam through Rocky Horror. That doesn't take away from their ability to teach you core skills to becoming a great cave diver. There's no question that despite all the crap that follows Jim around, he puts out good divers.
But where does that leave us? Well, I can tell you this.... I've NEVER met a crappy GUE Instructor. I've NEVER had a GUE student come to me for full cave and need remedial anything. Their buoyancy, trim, propulsion, status in the water was spot on EVERY single time. Can I say that about any other single agency (even my own agency)? NOPE.
And about GUE's hubris. I believe they have made a real effort to eliminate that persona. Surely it's not perfect. It's certainly not gone completely. And frankly there are still some arsehats who believe in the old ways of doing things. But I still remember to this day the time David Rhea of GUE spent
30+ minutes explaining the ins and outs of the RB80 to me, an IANTD instructor, as friendly and as patiently as could be.
---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 11:21 PM ----------
I defy you to name one cave diver with more experience than Jim Wyatt who charted underground lakes when GUE wasnt even the dna in its future founders, or a better model of perfect technique, discipline, and intestinal fortitude amongst cave divers then Edd Sorenson.
Omission -- You know Jim hasn't really done much in the way of exploration right? Has he been to the end of the line in Manatee, Ginnie, Madison, Little River, Indian?
I like Jim Wyatt, and he's an awesome instructor, but you got your facts wrong if you think he's laid a bunch of line anywhere. Jim is an educator. He's never been an explorer by most people's measure. Sure he was here in the very beginning, then moved away for a long time, then moved back about a decade ago. If you want to know who really did the exploration, call people like JJ, Mark Long, Bill Rennaker, etc. Jim's name isn't on the map because he wasn't there for it.
But, I'll answer your question...
Bill Rennaker, Tom Mount, Paul Heinerth, Jill Heinerth, Jarrod Joblonski,
And sure, JJ became a cave instructor in 1990, but that's still before Jim Wyatt came back from his hiatus at the ocean.