I did it

[newton]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
BTW, in the five years that I've been talking with Irvine (both publically and privately -- mostly privately), he's always treated me decent. I'm one of the few who have actually grown to kinda like him a bit, I suspect . [/B]

Maybe, but his response to two different questions you asked let me a bit cold, and I felt he never answered your question, and treated you like crap.

The first was a a question you asked about people doing multiple dives over multiple days, and the second one was about why 'bubbling' in shallow water was a good thing. (One of those questions may have been from someone else, but at least one of them you asked him on tech-diver.)

I suspect that you may just be used to GI3 answering questions like that. ;-)


Nate

 

[jonnythan]

DIR is, for some people, an excellent way to dive and an excellent diving system.

For others, however, it's just another penis measurement that gives them an avenue through which they can claim superiority.

You know who you are. Get over yourselves.

 

[WYDT]

Holy Cow! I was gonna read this thread but I think I'll just go read War and Peace.... it'll be shorter!! LOL!

Sheesh!

 

[Lost Yooper]

Hey Newton,

He's a very, very different person on a personal/private level than he is on those open forums. He's never flamed me (at least that I can remember). His answers are not like a UP's or Roakeys, that's for certain . If he dislikes someone, he won't keep it to himself. Ever since I e-mailed him the first time about five years ago, he's always gotten right back with me and answered my questions.

One thing is for certain, you always know what you're going to get with him. He has never lied to me; has never decieved me; and he has never recommended that I do something inherently dangerous like deep air or technical solo diving. Everything that I have learned from him has increased my enjoyment, safety, and knowledge regarding diving.

I do respect him, and I'm not afraid to admit it. He calls the diving industry what it really is. I understand where his frustration stems from. Do I like his approach? Not particularly. Do I think he's right? Most of the time. I owe him a lot. You know, for a guy that goes around the country and gives seminars for free, I think he's more deserving than some give him credit for.

Mike

 

[newton]

[ Writing another novelette ]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
One thing is for certain, you always know what you're going to get with him. He has never lied to me; has never decieved me; and he has never recommended that I do something inherently dangerous like deep air or technical solo diving.

You mean like agressive deco (getting out of the water *way* faster than even his deco research friends recommend), ignoring the 24 hours to fly rule, and completely ignoring the effects of a previous dive when planning the next dive.

(Note, this is not what V-Planner and DecoWeenie do, but GI3 has publically recommended this kind of behavior publically, on more than one occasion.)

I do respect him, and I'm not afraid to admit. He calls the diving industry what it really is.

This is one of the few areas that you and I differ on. I think the 'diving industry' is not any worse than any other industry, yet it's being painted with the 'greed' brush far too easily. I honestly believe that the dive industry is responding to it's customers, and is like the rest of us is just trying to make a living supplying what it perceives the customers desire.

I hear alot of 'we know better what the customers needs than the customer' from George, and I have to agree that there is some truth to that. But, to place all of the blame on the dive industry is just too simple of an answer. They are an easy target, but just because it's an easy target doesn't make it right.

I find it rather ironic that the largest 'DIR' shops sell more non-DIR equipment than they do DIR equipment. I don't see George railing against Brownie's, EE, or even JJ who are prominent members of the 'diving industry' he rails against. The shops and companies manufacter and sell alot of 'crappy/useless/dangerous' dive equipment, but somehow they are exhonerated (sp?) from their behavior because they happened to be run by some of his best friends.

The dive industry is simply trying to make a buck. I place the primary blame on the shoulders of the consumer, who are getting what they are asking for. Easy instruction, snazzy looking equipment, and little need for using their brain (Uncle Pug's favorite topic). A consumer will put up with a bit of risk to avoid using their brain, since there is generally more risk driving to the airport on the way to the dive trip than a risk in modern dive equipment failing. At least, that's the justification I've heard and used myself.

In all honesty, the kind of consumers that hang out on ScubaBoard are *NOT* the bread and butter customers for the dive industry. The kind of folks who hang out here on a regular basis are divers who are interested in becoming better divers, and who are the kind who become the DiveMasters, techincal divers, and who are interested in doing more than the diving vacation once every couple of years (or if you're well off, once or twice/year) to a tropical vacation to relax.

We like to become better consumers and divers by becoming better trained, using better/safer equipment, and we're willing to do a bit more research to find the 'best deals' on the 'better' equipment.

More personally, I want to find out for myself if you're doing something differently than what I'm doing, and if your way is better (safer/cheaper/faster/etc..) than my way. So far I've learned a lot, and I've become a better diver for it. But, there's still alot more to learn!!!



Nate

 

[Lost Yooper]

Nate,

You have to put things he says into a little perspective. He tells people all the time not to do some of the things he does to the extreme that he does them. If one were to attempt to do some of the things he does with a precondition (overweight, out of shape, PFO, etc) or without a thorough understanding of decompression physiology and procedures, you would probably get bent (or worse).

If you ask him to recommend a deco profile, his answer to you will be different than if you asked him what he would do for a profile. You have to watch what he's saying, keep it in context, and learn the why behind it. Then you apply it to your diving with whatever conservative factors you wish to throw in.

As for V-Planner, take a closer look. With a three hour surface interval, it gets you close to ignoring the first dive. Irvine says he clears in 30mins, but that most people clear in less than 4hrs (if you use the right gasses, deco procedures, and don't have any preconditions). So, if you're clear, then you don't have to worry about flying after diving or the first dive. He also says you can ignore the first dive even if you aren't totally clear, IF (really big IF) you follow the proper procedures for the second dive. Of course, you have to take into account O2 exposure for the dives.

Now, for the most important factor in all of this. The agencies, and the industry at large, have to cater to all kinds of people (fat, skinny, young, old, smart, dumb, ugly,etc.). For liability sake, they can't afford to tell people it can be safe to fly after diving; do reverse profiles; etc. Irvine isn't an instructor or anything, so he doesn't have to worry too much about liability. If people are crazy enough to do something they read on the net, then good luck to them.

As for the industry, we'll have to agree to disagree. I place most of the responsiblity on their shoulders. Consumers only know what they're told, and they'll believe anything they hear if it comes from an "expert" behind a desk at a dive shop.

Later,

Mike

 

[newton]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
You have to put things he says into a little perspective. He tells people all the time not to do some of the things he does to the extreme that he does them.

I hear alot of I "Do It Right" and should everyone else, and very little of "don't do what I do".

If one were to attempt to do some of the things he does with a precondition (overweight, out of shape, PFO, etc) or without a thorough understanding of decompression physiology and procedures, you would probably get bent (or worse).

My DIR instructors would do as he does, despite having never been checked for a PFO, or having any Doppler tests done on them. The certainly didn't get the impression that it was a George-only thing. Nor do I get the impression when he responds to divers on public lists.

As for V-Planner, take a closer look. With a three hour surface interval, it gets you close to ignoring the first dive. Irvine says he clears in 30mins, but that most people clear in less than 4hrs (if you use the right gasses, deco procedures, and don't have any preconditions). So, if you're clear, then you don't have to worry about flying after diving or the first dive.

Maybe where I live is vastly different, but it normally takes less than 30 minutes for my hair to dry. George has admitted to flying back after a multi-dive trip while his hair was still wet from his last dive. This exact example was the one my DIR-F instructor claimed was the reason he would never bother with a wait-before-flying rule.

He also says you can ignore the first dive even if you aren't totally clear, IF (really big IF) you follow the proper procedures for the second dive. Of course, you have to take into account O2 exposure for the dives.

Again, I consider this risky and unsafe. Just because it works for him, doesn't mean it's applicable to all decompression divers. It's taught as if it's safe for every technical diver, and that almost all traditional deco procedures are worthless and should be completely thrown out.

Now, for the most important factor in all of this. The agencies, and the industry at large, have to cater to all kinds of people (fat, skinny, young, old, smart, dumb, ugly,etc.). For liability sake, they can't afford to tell people it can be safe to fly after diving; do reverse profiles; etc. Irvine isn't an instructor or anything, so he doesn't have to worry too much about liability. If people are crazy enough to do something they read on the net, then good luck to them.

My point exactly. He's touting risky/unsafe procedures that are not applicable to generic diving. I consider his deco procedures *much* more risky than diving 'Deep Air', since the liklihood of getting bent (or worse) is greater.

Consumers only know what they're told, and they'll believe anything they hear if it comes from an "expert" behind a desk at a dive shop.

The dive shop owner is trying to make a buck, just like you and I. The dive shop "expert" may only have so much time to figure out what works, and because of business issues, may only be able to sell certain kinds of equipment due to consumer demand. I know very few people who can justify a $500+ Halcyon setup, when they can buy a brand-new jacket BC from their local shop for $250. Consumers aren't as dumb as I think we make them out to be. A consumer may buy what the expert says to buy because it's simply the easiest thing for them to buy, even if it's not the 'best' thing for them to buy.

Yes, the jacket may not be as nice, but then again, I'd like to own a Lexus instead of my Chevy. (Well, maybe not, but I'm kind of weird that way towards cars. It may not be the best, but it's American, and not a FORD!!!)



Nate

 

[Lost Yooper]

Nate,

I'll grant you that he doesn't have a little disclaimer at the bottom of every post of his, but I can assure you that he has made repeated posts saying that people have to be cautious. Here's his discussion about bounce diving (written to his own WKPP guys, I believe):

http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Decompression/why_we_do_not_bounce_dive_after_diving.htm

He's telling them to be careful. I've known him for five years, and I have seen many such instances of him telling others not to do as he would regarding profiles.

Maybe where I live is vastly different, but it normally takes less than 30 minutes for my hair to dry. George has admitted to flying back after a multi-dive trip while his hair was still wet from his last dive. This exact example was the one my DIR-F instructor claimed was the reason he would never bother with a wait-before-flying rule.

Yeah, he wasn't alone either. Bill Mee was with him when they were at 10,000' in a Sesna coming from the Bahamas after a day of deep cave dives. Human physiology can't be that different, can it? Now, consider that airliners are pressurized to 5,000' - 7,000' and you start to get the picture of what's going on.

My DIR instructors would do as he does, despite having never been checked for a PFO, or having any Doppler tests done on them. The certainly didn't get the impression that it was a George-only thing. Nor do I get the impression when he responds to divers on public lists.

As for your instructors, they probably know more than they let on, and I'd be willing to bet they add in their own safety factors. I certainly do. If they don't, and they're doing fine, then...

Again, I consider this risky and unsafe. Just because it works for him, doesn't mean it's applicable to all decompression divers. It's taught as if it's safe for every technical diver, and that almost all traditional deco procedures are worthless and should be completely thrown out.

You consider it risky and unsafe becuase that's what you've been told is risky and unsafe -- and rightfully so for the most part. I say that, not because they are necessarily risky and unsafe, but that they could be under the right circumstances (ie. someone with a precondition). The underlying principles of what he is saying are safe for all technical divers IF they don't have any preconditions. He does say that "traditional deco procedures are worthless and should be completely thrown out", and he's right too. You can feel the difference any time you want to experiment for yourself. Go ahead and do a deep air dive with Navy tables and then do a trimix dive using George's methods. I'll bet you a beer that you'll feel 100% better after the dive.

He's touting risky/unsafe procedures that are not applicable to generic diving. I consider his deco procedures *much* more risky than diving 'Deep Air', since the liklihood of getting bent (or worse) is greater.

This is just plain wrong, Nate. Everything he talks about is applicable to other technical divers. The details may change, but the principles do apply. They can even apply to recreational divers.

Later,

Mike

 

[newton]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
George flying minutes after diving.


Yeah, he wasn't alone either. Bill Mee was with him when they were at 10,000' in a Sesna coming from the Bahamas after a day of deep cave dives. Human physiology can't be that different, can it? Now, consider that airliners are pressurized to 5,000' - 7,000' and you start to get the picture of what's going on.

Actually, human physiology is *radically* different. It changes on a daily basis. And, as George likes to brag, his results are vastly different than most, according to his Doppler tests.

As for your instructors, they probably know more than they let on, and I'd be willing to bet they add in their own safety factors. I certainly do. If they don't, and they're doing fine, then...

My suspicion is that they're broke divers, and can't afford to fly, let alone go on a diving vacation that requires flying. Regardless, they're teaching this in their courses.

You consider it risky and unsafe becuase that's what you've been told is risky and unsafe -- and rightfully so for the most part.

Even the folks that advise George admit it's risky, yet he's teaching others (both by example and by his teaching) that it is safe.

I say that, not because they are necessarily risky and unsafe, but that they could be under the right circumstances (ie. someone with a precondition).

A precondition could happen *that* day. Slight sickness, a little bit of dehydration, phase of the moon, etc...

It's a practice that could easily get someone killed!

The underlying principles of what he is saying are safe for all technical divers IF they don't have any preconditions.

This is where I agree with you, except that preconditions can happen easily. The WKPP divers are a hand-selected crew who are forced to much higher standards than most of technical divers. No drinking, no smoking, and most of them are hard-core vegans.

He does say that "traditional deco procedures are worthless and should be completely thrown out", and he's right too. You can feel the difference any time you want to experiment for yourself. Go ahead and do a deep air dive with Navy tables and then do a trimix dive using George's methods. I'll bet you a beer that you'll feel 100% better after the dive.

Or, I'll be dead.

Now, the chances of me feeling better for a single deep dive are probably *much* greater than me dieing. But, let's say I'm diving in either Truk or Bikinii. I'll be doing 2-3 deep dives/day, over a period of a week. What George preaches is that I can basically ignore that I've been diving the entire week and get on a plane the same day I've made my last dive, and nothing bad will happen to me. To quote you, "this is just plain wrong". No-one but George and his acolytes makes these kinds of riskless recommendations.

What it means is that it puts *everything* he says at risk. All of the good stuff he does is now suspect, just like you do with everything Mount and Gilham have done because they advocate Deep Air.

Yes, there's alot of good stuff, but the line of what's good and what's bad starts to get fuzzy (if not downright gone) when he starts talking about deco theory. It's hard to believe *anything* he says now. Especially when what he is doing is not only in conflict with traditional deco theories, but even the same 'medical' folks he considers his allies don't even agree with it. The few 'experts' that agree with him have no medical backgrounds, and are basing it on antecdotal evidence that may/may not be applicable to a significant portion of divers.

I've got a brain, and I'm willing to use it. There is no scientific basis for his theories (which he admits to), yet he continues to advocate unproven and arguably unsafe practices to the technical community.



Nate

 

[Lost Yooper]

I don't know, Nate. Weinke, Maiken, Baker, Hamilton and others all seem to like what they see. The US Navy and Duke University seem to be interested too. Please don't take offense to this, Nate, but I believe your distrust and skeptism of what Irvine says is mostly the result of ignorance, inexperience, and brain washing from other dive agencies. My skeptism has faded because I've seen it work first hand (and I'm not a vegetarian superman athelete either).

One thing is for certain, and that is that I have been lied to directly by "respectable agencies". I trusted them with my training, and I now know they gave me a false sense of security. Today, I listen to a different crowd. The results of which have made my diving more enjoyable, safer, and easier than ever before. It's not just me who has noticed all this either, but hundreds (probably thousands) of others as well. This stuff isn't being made up out of thin air.

Keep up the skepticism, Nate. In the end, it's your choice who you're gong to follow and believe. I've presented my case about as clearly as I can as to why I follow who I follow (and why I don't follow others). Hopefully, you'll sort through all the BS and come to some conclusion that makes sense for you. One final piece of advice, always consider the motives of those you listen to.

Good luck,

Mike