hypothetical scenario 4 our Monday morning quarterbacks 20 miles out & boats gone

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

First of all, let me say, yes I have stacked the odds against our group divers. Better to think about a stacked deck now from the comfort of our keyboards. Second, this is a disaster, and in part by definition, a disaster means nothing goes right and often times keeps getting worse.

Now for those of you who say that I don't want the divers to make home. I do. They just aren't going to get a nice boat ride or have the Coasties show up in a few minutes. It is going to be a long wait and whether they live or die depends on the good and bad decisions they make. People have lived through far worse. For those who say it is too tough, you probably would die because you have given up so easily. I could have said you were going to dive wreck AAA, but the conditions were bad, so you dove BBB instead and your land buddy doesn't know about the change--that does happen sometimes. And the weather gets bad sometimes. I didn't even send a storm to you or say the water was choppy.

As far as equipment limits, let me say once again. The only thing you can't have is a radio and locator beacon. Whatever you dive now or plan to buy soon--you can have. I will recant on the hood and gloves if you dive with them now in such conditions. If you have a DIR config and you and your buddy each carry 2 back up lights then you have those too in addition to the gear I started. If you carry lift bags, reels, whistles, dye or whatever you have--you have it. Just like if this horrible thing happened for real. What you jump off the boat with is what you have. I included lights in the OP since it is a day dive and many folks don't dive with them during the day.

Onfloat, said that his wife knows and would alert someone. I am guessing that his regular dive buddy does the same thing. So now you have 2 different folks on shore that will sound an alert in case something happens to one or one forgets. So if the divers surface at 4:00 pm and are due back by 5:30pm. Sometime around 6:00 pm an alert would be sent from your land buddy. The Coasties should be on the way by 6:30. You would have been in the water since about 3:00 pm at this point and two and half hours of it you would have known you were in deep trouble. Anyway, his plan does not depend on the boat showing up or not, so I think he might be found.

No one in their right mind would get on a boat with a captain that is high. However if he becomes high while you are down, you couldn't do anything about it. No one would get on a boat with a captain that they knew would place them in great harms way and yet we read about just such a thing happening from time to time--the divers just didn't know it. People end up on boats with non working radio and lacking safety gear all the time. It is not a problem, until there is a problem which is why you have safety gear in the first place.

I like the idea of using the spools to form some sort of anchor if you decide to stay put. I would not send one buddy alone to tie off on the wreck. It is already a stressful situation, so I would stay in pairs. If you can't go back down for a bounce and tie off, I would think you could make 4 mini anchors out of your weights and spools. Between having 4 lines down with some weight and the group being tied together, I would think if it doesn't hold you, it would at least slow the drift down. Being in a know spot is good. Even if you got blown off one dive site, I would think the Coasties would then check other known sites that the charter frequented.

I am not sure that not inflating all sausages, smb's, lift bags and so forth right away is the best idea. I want everything that has color inflated and floating so I can be seen. I might not have enough time once a plane comes by. Also, we had a panicked diver. I think it might be comforting to hold onto something. It would be for me anyway especially if it starts getting choppy. I liked the idea on one diver touching, looking and talking to the distressed diver right away before things get too out of control emotionally.

Hooking everyone together is a great idea. I read a lot of boating forums and more than one time, someone has floated off in the night never to be seen again after a boating accident.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of my bc--it floats. Not sure how I feel about the tanks. They still have 750 psi in them and as they are getting close to empty they become more buoyant. For this scenario will are using AL 80's. I can still take a few breaths off them in case it gets choppy I think I would either keep them on or get them to the optimal positive pressure and then lash them together and make a little raft. If they have color, it gives more bit of color in the water to help a plane see us. If the are still on our backs you can's see them very well, but they still have some air value.

If we could not anchor ourselves and stay put, then we might be forced to swim. How would you best do that? A compass reading for shore certainly, but would you swim in a pod or arrow like geese and rotate positions? Swim on your back or face and snorkel? Both. Would you swim at night when sharks are more likely feeding? Or would you just plug along?

We read on this board over and over again that you as a diver are responsible for your own safety. So in this case, you are responsible for pulling yourself and 3 others out of it. I think it is good to think through what you would do and what gear you have or plan to add.

 

[mikerault]

Everyone says ditch weights, why? If you are buoyant, on the surface and staying put why ditch weights? I could see it if you were trying to swim ashore or couldn't maintain buoyancy, but stationary on the surface with ample buoyancy, it doesn't make sense and is a waste.

Mike

 

[D_B]

An al80 is 4lbs positive when empty and if it has any air left in it, I'm keeping it on my back, then I like the raft idea when empty. Ditching weights would be a good idea, if not used to anchor you to the reef, it will get you higher out of the chop, make you more visible .. is there any reason you would you not ditch your weights?

Very good post Leah, thanks for making us Think

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

From the link above, here is the post by DiverBuoy:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, now that's a serious swim ... I couldn't find this posted anywhere, advance apologies for a possible repost.
Diver lost off Puerto Rico swims 10 miles to shore

Powered by CDNN - CYBER DIVER News Network

SAN JUAN, PUERTO RICO (10 Feb 2006) -- A lost diver who was the subject of a U.S. Coast Guard search managed to swim 10 miles through heavy seas to safety, authorities said Thursday.
Marcos Calzada Colon said that at one point he followed a pod of whales because he thought they would protect him from sharks.
Colon, who was separated from his partner while diving for conch near the island of Culebra, off Puerto Rico's east coast, swam through heavy rain and rough waters before reaching his home island of Vieques, said Coast Guard spokesman Ricardo Castrodad.
Colon's partner reported him missing Tuesday afternoon and Coast Guard boats and a helicopter searched for the 40-year-old man until nightfall.
After becoming separated from his boat during the storm, he ditched his diving weights and swam through the night.
"When I got to land, the first thing I said was: 'Thank you God,' " he said
__________________

Unlike this guy, you are not alone, you have 3 buddies. It isn't raining and the seas aren't rough.

 

[cummings66]

Now that you've allowed some gear configs and routines that we normally do I'd say we stand a chance. I religiously tell my wife what time I should be back, and where I'm diving. Yes, we often dive a different spot but at least we know a time at which we should be back or come looking.

Now, I dive a config that uses a canister light as part of my weighting so it's there whether or not I use it and many of my buddies do the same. I'm glad you recognize that many divers do this.

Because I volunteer for an agency that does SAR I know the value in staying put, but I also know at times it's not going to work. In this case if I was where I said I was going to be I'd stay put, if not depending on current I'd start moving to shore if possible. I've been part of searches where we looked for a plane that was overdue and supposed to be following a route but changed it, they never did get found. The key there is to stick to your plan for SAR sake. As a pilot we can file a flight plan which says where we're going and how long we'll be there, etc. As a diver going that far out to sea I'd do the same thing, and like the pilot I am I'd insure we stick to the plan. There would be a mutiny if the Capt. tried to deviate, however like a pilot can do if I could modify that plan in route to the new destination I would then deviate. In other words, no deviation possible without notification.

Get my point? As a pilot I do those things, it's standard practice and works well in diving. There are many similar things between the two when it concerns safety procedures.

Your scenario is flawed, I NEVER EVER dive al tanks. They are ALWAYS steel, ALWAYS. I will not dive if forced to use AL. Steel with din is it, ALWAYS or no dive. However that doesn't change anything, I'd keep it if not swimming, the BC will keep me afloat no matter what. IMO anything that floats me stays, if it sinks me I might ditch it, i.e. weights. There's no harm in that, for the same reason I could be persuaded to lose the tank once it's empty. In other words, why are you restricting divers from using gear that's part of our basic configuration. My steel tanks are part of my weighting and an essential part of my equipment to me.

Instead I'd say something like you can only carry the gear that you routinely carry on a dive trip, nothing extra. Who carries playing cards with them on every dive? I know some do once in a while, but every dive?

As to hood an glove, water temps such as this are well suited to them, if it's colder than your core body temps then it needs to be covered, your head loses a lot of heat and a hood is important, especially if you're doing multiple dive.

As the recent incident of a man leaving his car to get help, then his wife is found and he's found much later dead shows, staying together at the scene is a pretty good idea and one that rescuers appreciate. Your odds are better this way.

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

And you have more than this girl that was washed overboard this weekend.
http://sports.aol.com/nhl/story/_a/canadiens-gms-daughter-swept-off-ship/20061210122909990001

You have an exposure suit, fins, mask to protect your eyes, compass for direction, some degree of light, buddies, sauges/floats, tanks with air, bc/float, line/spool, weights/anchor, some of you have a strobe, some of you have an extra light, some of you have a sub alert/loud horn, and some have a plan

Here is a copy of the article:
HALIFAX, Nova Scotia (Dec. 10) - The daughter of hockey Hall of Famer Bob Gainey was swept off a Nova Scotia ship during an Atlantic storm, and Canadian and U.S. rescuers are looking for her in an extensive ocean search.

Laura Gainey, a 25-year-old crew member whose father is the Montreal Canadiens ' general manager, was swept off the covered deck of a Caribbean-bound vessel by a large wave Friday night.

A U.S. Coast Guard vessel searched through Saturday night, and aircraft resumed searching at first light Sunday, Coast Guard spokeswoman Faith Wisinski said. They are scouring an area about 475 miles southeast of Cape Cod, Mass.

U.S. Coast Guard spokesman Larry Chambers said crews using a plane and two vessels planned to search overnight Sunday for Gainey. Another plane would be on standby for possible use Monday morning.

"Our crews have night-vision goggles and infrared abilities on board to pick up temperature changes in the water," Chambers said. "All help in night searches."

Gainey had been in the water almost 41 hours without a lifejacket, but was wearing warm protective clothing. Wisinski said the water is warm, but life-threatening hypothermia ordinarily sets in after 36 hours.

The Canadian search and rescue center sent a Hercules aircraft to the area. Mindanao, a civilian tanker, is participating in the search, along with Gainey's boat, the Picton Castle.

Dan Moreland, senior captain of the Picton Castle, said Gainey is a volunteer on the tall ship. He called her a "well-loved crew member," who is very fit and a strong swimmer.

Bob Gainey learned Saturday that the missing woman was his daughter. Players and coaches had a day off Sunday and were not available for comment. The team said "the thoughts and prayers of the entire Montreal Canadiens organization are with Mr. Gainey and his family."

Bob Gainey is awaiting news on the search with his three other children, Anna, Colleen and Steve. The club said assistant general manager Pierre Gauthier will handle Gainey's responsibilities. Gainey also holds the title of executive vice president.

Moreland described the situation as "completely devastating for everybody" on the vessel, which undertakes voyages around the world. He said hundreds of former crew members of the ship have expressed concern.

"It could happen to any ship, to any captain," he said from headquarters. "And, from my point of view, it's the captain's greatest fear."

Gainey first joined the ship as a trainee in Cape Town, South Africa, in the last three months of the ship's world voyage.

"She is hardworking, someone who wanted to turn her life around. She was passionate about sailing, loves it and worked very hard," he said. "She was no slouch."

The 180-foot ship serves as a training vessel. According to the ship's Web site, trainees learn "traditional seafaring skills" and need no prior sailing experience. They keep lookout, handle sails, raise anchor, haul lines and help in the galley. All hands stand watch underway and in port."

Bob Gainey, who turns 53 on Wednesday, won five Stanley Cups with Montreal during a 16-year career from 1973-89. He also won a championship as general manager of the Dallas Stars in 1999. His wife, Cathy, died of brain cancer in 1995 at 39.

 

[Skull]

Create a bigger target by attaching each other. Second create a heirarchy with one on post at all times. The others should be resting in the event that help does come after a long period of time as to assist in the extraction.

TBS the fact is 78% of all search and rescues fail because frankly even with 4 divers huddled and sausages out you are a spec to a set of eyes 1000 feet up ..in chop or open water swells ..your chances have just dropped another 10% ...No debris field.. less the boat sank and there is some debris left equates to a few square feet of material in a several thousand square miles of search area.

Basically it comes down to luck ...as clint said do you feel lucky ? Cause putting yourself into this senario with a jackoff crew and captain most probably had some tell tale signs at the dock ... just a thought! Briefings like.. if we can't dive site AAA then how about BBB usually come with a long discussion amoung the participants. Clue everyone in before you get wet. Require a head count prior to geting wet. Make sure the crew knows who you are before you get wet. File a trip log at the desk of the hotel or with the harbor masters office.

A final thought if the crew and captain are such jackoffs as to leave you there intentionally you are not going to get rescued at site BBB. Cause they are going to say they dropped you at site AAA ...get it! Fot that matter unintentionally!!!


Another exercise in futility. Chances are given these circumstances it all comes down to luck ...and frankly it seems that luck is not on the side of these 4 divers...so a more reasonable discussion would be about why SAC rates mean nothing to dive planning!!!

 

[Doc Intrepid]

I'm starting to see the value of a strobe, much like a downed avaitor would have.

Strobes are not worth much during hours of daylight, but they are priceless during the time between sunset and full dark, or "nautical twilight", and early dawn before the sun rises. From a searching aircraft over the ocean, the flash of a strobe at dusk or night can be seen for miles.



By the way, here is an article that discusses one diver's preparations for exactly this sort of "unscheduled drift". Also, on pg 11, is some information regarding a very long multi-day swim that a diver was forced to make, and what he learned from doing so. The Peleliu Pack sounds like a decent idea, (and something that some of you are obviously already doing,) so wanted to offer this for those that had not seen it previously. Worth printing and perusing...:

http://www.tabula-international.com/DIV/SMB3.html



As always, YMMV.

 

[citykid]

A bitter opinion this may be, but I find that if I wait on others to assist me... it never happens, it is done wrong, dosen't happen for a long time, etc.

If I was washed overboard with nothing but my shirt on my back I would spend all my effort trying to keep my head above water and hope a rescue would happen. There really is nothing else you can do (unless you are somewhat near shore).

But if I have all my gear to help me float, to breathe easier, to navigate, to swim easier, etc. then I am taking things into my own hands. A twenty mile swim? Yeah, that sucks. But with fins, BC, wetsuit & compass it can be done. I would rather be proactive then wait around on the maybe that someone is looking. If I don't know that someone is looking then I act as if no one is looking.

But of course, everyone has to be on board. Saftey in numbers, and no one get left behind.

 

[Charlie99]

my regular buddy and I both have Dive Alerts on our rigs, so I'd give a 1 second blast every 5 minutes.

That's just a waste of air. You can see a boat or plane much further than they can see even a group of 4 divers with sausages. If you can't see anybody, then they definitely aren't in range of an air horn. Same for flares. Many boaters in distress use up all their flares trying to signal container ships off near the horizon with no success. OTOH, it is worthwhile to scan a mirror flash along the horizon since that can be seen amazing distances in some circumstances.