How would you teach a 10yr old to use dive tables?

[Coldwater_Canuck]

There is a school of thought that the effects of pressure and nitrogen build up in a young child's developing body may have some long term effects. The real truth is that nobody knows one way or the other. I haven't really looked into the research (and it is unethical to run experiments like this on kids) as I do not have children yet, but perhaps there is some evidence from research done on a human analogue like mice or pigs.

At any rate, what I do know I would not let my young children dive, making them wait until most of their physical developing is complete before subjecting them to the physical stresses of diving. Hopefully by the time I have kids old enough to get certified there will be some more solid information. *&^( the certification agencies for taking a great excuse (too young to be certified) away from concerned parents.

Same here, but I tend to be an overly cautious person. I am willing to take risks, but I like to understand the risk of something, and it is the unknowns with children diving that scare me the most.

Maybe my tune will change when I actually have kids, but I just don't see the rush. I know it's probably exciting to be able to dive with your children, there's just too many questions of safety for both the kid and the person they are diving with for my liking.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I didn't get the feeling that the person who origionally posted that about not wanting his child to dive was specifically talking about physical effects. You've brought up a good point and I will read up on this further. Thanks.

For one side of the debate, this is a good read:
Why I Do NOT Train Kids In Scuba Diving

It is entirely one sided, but the author has a PHD is a biochemistry and seems level headed. At the very least it explains what the 'concerns' are.

 

[seaducer]

Do you honestly think that the certification would keep parents from allowing thier kids to scuba when the kids are wanting to do it?

I would hope so. Considering the down side to making mistakes is scuba is pretty bad.

How many kids with 0 training can you bet are allowed to breathe off their parents tank in a pool?

Far too many considering how little pressure is takes to embolize if you hold a full breath of compressed air and ascend. Considering that many children are prone to over dramatizing things, and it is an instinct to hold your breath under water, scuba is something that should be taught systematically by people who know what they are doing, not parents who may have just enough of a grasp to dive themselves.

This happens more than you would imagine.

Sadly it does not. Happily it will not with my own children. Unless I become an instructor by then. And buy a pool.

So many of you have to remember there was a time before certs.. Like the time before drivers licenses. People just did it and hopefully did it safely.

And for an adult to purchase gear and place themselves at an elevated risk that is fine. They theoretically understand the risks they are taking. But the point I raised, and is still valid, is that the long term health effects of diving on children is not known, but suspected by some doctors to be significant enough to issue a warning. This has nothing to do with certifications other than the fact it is easier to tell your child "no, you have to wait until you are 15 to get certified" when the website confirms this. However many now say 10, so it is a harder fight.

At least for my kids there are enough parents treating theirs like guinea pigs that I will be able to make a more informed decision when I get to that point.

 

[seaducer]

Maybe my tune will change when I actually have kids, but I just don't see the rush. I know it's probably exciting to be able to dive with your children, there's just too many questions of safety for both the kid and the person they are diving with for my liking.

I myself am dieing to have kids and show them all the things I love most. But man, the possibilities are pretty scarey. And I am by no means risk averse...

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Do you honestly think that the certification would keep parents from allowing thier kids to scuba when the kids are wanting to do it?

How many kids with 0 training can you bet are allowed to breathe off their parents tank in a pool?

This happens more than you would imagine.

So many of you have to remember there was a time before certs.. Like the time before drivers licenses. People just did it and hopefully did it safely.

Doesn't your last point contradict the rest of the post? Now that there is a minimum driving age, kids driving is incredibly rare. Maybe on a farm or in a parking lot they will be allowed for a minute, but in general until you are 16 (or whatever age) kids just don't drive.

Of course people will share air in a pool or whatever, but I think this is a lot different then saying a 10 year old kid is qualified to go down to 40 feet with a buddy. Also, in this case, clearly no one is saying this is a safe practice, the parent is being reckless on some level (reckless is a bad word, since I think in a 5 foot pool this is probably fine, but hopefully you can get the point), much like letting an unlicensed driver sit in the driver's seat: the responsibility is now solely on the shoulders of the parents.

By allowing 10 year olds to get certified, there is some implied communication that 10 years old is the safe age to start diving. From the link I posed earlier, there is a quote "Carl Edmonds, the well-respected hyperbaric physician, labeled allowing parents (with no knowledge of scuba risks or need for abstract reasoning) to determine the suitability for scuba training a reprehensible act.". The point being, individual parents are not in a great position to be evaluating risks about subjects they don't understand. Unless you have degrees with extensive knowledge of chemistry, human biology and human psychology as well as being a long time diver, you probably don't have the resources to make this call. The agencies have better resources to determine the appropriate age, and if they say "10", right or wrong, it implies they have reason to believe that is the safe age to start diving.

 

[rstofer]

I didn't get the feeling that the person who origionally posted that about not wanting his child to dive was specifically talking about physical effects. You've brought up a good point and I will read up on this further. Thanks.

There doesn't appear to be any factual information one way or the other. I see no reason to assume the prognosis is grim.

OTOH, there is no reason not to hold back a little on depth - say 30' vs 40'. There are plenty of places to dive that are in the 20-30' range and have abundant sea life. A kid can explore for years and never take it all in. Keep it shallow!

Use a small tank like an aluminum 50 that weighs about 20#. First because it automatically limits bottom time but also because it is quite light. It's bad enough the kids have to wear weights to overcome their wetsuits but there is no point in humping a 35# Al 80.

We are fortunate to dive near the Monterey Bay Aquarium. What a treat to see in real life much of what is on display for people who will never get wet. Up close and personal with science Diving isn't just a sport (or even a sport), it is a form of transportation to get from the surface to the science down below.

It's odd that parents let their kids play baseball, football or soccer knowing that they WILL get injured but they shun the idea of diving because they MIGHT get hurt. Same with go-karts, dirt bikes and off-highway vehicles. New poll: how many around here allow their kids to ride dirt bikes?

We have a smorgasbord of opportunities for kids to get hurt. Diving isn't unique in this regard, but the risks are manageable.

For those who don't want their kids to dive until later: no problem. But it is worth noting that not all parents feel that way. That doesn't make them bad parents.

Richard

 

[Rhone Man]

Lots and lots of trolling in here, so I will try and douse some of the flames with a bit of petrol.

- Teaching 10 years olds the maths of tables - shouldn't be a problem, especially if they use the diagrams that the agencies use with all the boxes on them, and (if they get desperate) a calculator.

- 10 years olds and diving, is an old, old topic. If you can look out for them, and you are sufficiently comfortable looking out for yourself (and I am guessing if you are diving with 10 years olds, we are talking <40 feet in clear water rather than trimix diving on the Andrea Doria) then that seems to be a decision a sensible person can take.

- Letting kids use your scuba gear in the pool - I am sure that there are lots of people who do this. I do (he's 8, by the way. And he knows how to use tables, but we just did that for fun). Is he going to embolise? I very, very much doubt it. Firstly, he is not mentally deficient - so when I tell him not to hold his breath, I don't think he will - it is just not that complicated (conversely, he seems to hyperventilate and breathe down the tank in record time). Secondly, even if he suddenly stood up in three feet of water we are talking about an expansion of gas of about 9%. Unless he had filled his lungs to absolute max capacity and screwed it down as hard as he could, he is not going to embolise. Thirdly, in an experiment that I don't suggest anybody ever repeats, ever, when I learned to dive (from my Dad) I misunderstood his instructions and though I had to always hold my breath on ascent. I tried, but the air kept belching out. If I can do something as stupid as that without embolising, I seriously doubt anyone ever will by standing up in a pool.

Lots of flaming no doubt forthcoming, so I'll mention one more thing: my son is absolutely everything to me. I am happy letting him swim around in my pool next with me breathing off a tank because I believe that it is absolutely safe. But I wouldn't let anyone else's kids do it. If he wants to dive when he is 10 (and I feel it is likely that he will), I will take him to the best instructor that I know and then stand well back (not going to repeat the mistakes my own Dad made with me!).

 

[rstofer]

Of course people will share air in a pool or whatever, but I think this is a lot different then saying a 10 year old kid is qualified to go down to 40 feet with a buddy.

I think you are overlooking the restrictions placed on Junior Open Water divers. Not only are they limited to 40' but they can only dive with a certified parent/guardian or a Dive Master/Instructor. They can not go diving with the kid down the street.

In other words, someone is holding their hand and guiding their experiences for the next 5 years.

Richard

 

[Walter]

Only one has actually explained why we do tables. I was just curious how others explain them.

The basic concepts are explained when Henry's Law is explained. A demonstration filling and emptying bottles with water will help folks visualize it.

Do you honestly think that the certification would keep parents from allowing thier kids to scuba when the kids are wanting to do it?

No. What keeps parents from pulling such stupid tricks is a concern for the lives of their children.

This happens more than you would imagine.

Wouldn't surprise me at all, there are lots of stupid people with kids.

So many of you have to remember there was a time before certs.. Like the time before drivers licenses. People just did it and hopefully did it safely.

Yes, but now you can actually get training instead of playing Russian roulette. There's also a very big difference between exposing yourself to unnecessary danger and exposing your children to that danger - oh, no one is advocating exposing themselves to that danger, just their children.

 

[Dr Neil]

And I'll just say, I'm not picky about who my buddy is: I'll dive with someone fresh out of OW or a 400 pound guy, but I would never have be buddies with someone under 16. I'm not a fan of 3 person buddy teams, but if I had a child I was diving with, I'd want at least one more adult with me.

I know lots of adults that I would pass over as a buddy in favor of a 16 year old. It's knowing the limitations of the diver rather than age.