How to do the frog kick?

[The Chairman]

To weigh in on this subject... All my OW students learn how to frog kick. To re-enforce this, I frog kick exclusively throughout the class and encourage them to emulate their instructor. They have to be able to stop, hold their position and then turn 90^o without using their hands in order to pass. It's really not that hard for them to learn. No, I don't expect perfection at this level, but I expect them to have the rudiments down.

 

[danvolker]

Maybe just my personal opinion but if I haven't got an overhead to stop me raising my feet, then I find a half flutter lets me swim even closer to the bottom, in a less tiring manner, and without raising any silt whatsoever.

It could be the fins.....On sunday for our third dive of the day, we did a reef dive....I decided to go with the Dive R freedive blades for this. Ever since I got into video, I swim right at the bottom, since that is where the camera sees color( with lights on)...so my choice would be modified flutter( fins pointing up) or frog....I find the DiveR's do an awesome frog kick, with a huge glide, and an amazing slow but massive "push" phase( totally unlike with jets--jets give a jerky little push for each "kick cycle") . Very relaxing for me, and heart rate stays extremely low. I had a group of about 12 divers with me, all flutter kicking, and to maintain proximity, many of my glides had to last for 8 seconds or so, to allow the standard scuba fin wearing divers, to be able to stay with me.

 

[The Chairman]

Which freediving fins are you wearing, Dan?

 

[tracydr]

Videos and still images make it look similar to the "whip kick" taught with breaststroke or elementary backstroke. Someone on the site here described it the same way. I tried that combined with imitating the UTD videos on a couple occasions, and got severe knee inflammation for several days afterward. Hopefully my mistakes will save the OP and others some pain. We used to sit by the pool doing the swim kick by numbers: bend the knees with feet together, cock the feet heels in, whip the feet outward and back together while straightening the legs, then glide. ("drop, cock, whip kick, glide" chanted over and over. I still hear the instructor 30 years later)

For those that know the frog kick well, is there a significant circular movement with knee extension? It seems that the torquing whip/rotation and simultaneous knee extension against stiff fins caused the problem. It was either very painful synovitis or ACL inflammation. Given that so many divers can do the kick painlessly and long-term, clearly there are right ways to do it. Feel free to consider me a cautionary example of kicking harder, not smarter.

It was probably your tibial attachment of the Ilialtibial band that became inflamed.
I would recommend practicing first without fins. Until the movement is comfortable and smooth, the fins can complicate the learning.
I'm still working on the back kick and find that I can do it without fins but have a much harder time when I put my fins on.
Baby Steps!

 

[The Chairman]

It was probably your tibial attachment of the Ilialtibial band that became inflamed.

I love it when you talk dirty! I don't think I have ever heard of that before. Trying to kick hard without first getting the joints loosened up and developing some muscle memory for the process often results in an injury. I agree that taking baby steps is a good methodology when learning any new skill or process.

 

[danvolker]

Which freediving fins are you wearing, Dan?

The Blue DiveR's DiveR Australia: Equipment
I actually have two sets....visit and dive with us some time, and you can try a pair

---------- Post Merged at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:53 AM ----------

There are several factors that can enter in to getting a freedive fin to grog kick well.....big rails on the blades is terrible for this...this is the construction of the Mustang C4 freedving blades ( which I also have_. You can't slide them well with the ankle articulation part of the kick, due to the rails, so the C4's are harder to frog kick with than I like.
Other issues are the angle from the foot pocket to the main blade..this is a control issue....also the stiffness of the material in the DiveR;s seems to be ideal for this, while just soft freedive fins, like Cressis, don't seem so adept at the frog kick. When you try several different pairs by different mfg's, you begin to see really big differences in performance for frog kick, helicopter, and really, all uses.

 

[Sleepdr]

I love it when you talk dirty! I don't think I have ever heard of that before. Trying to kick hard without first getting the joints loosened up and developing some muscle memory for the process often results in an injury. I agree that taking baby steps is a good methodology when learning any new skill or process.

In my case, it didn't seem to be the IT band. The pain was pretty localized to the medial part of the knee joint space, maybe extending inferiorly along the patellar tendon. It prompted an informal lunchtime chat with an orthopedic surgeon in the cafeteria. Rest, ice, and adding Motrin to my food pyramid for half a week took care of the pain, but there's still some occasional discomfort. My knees are bad anyway from youthful severe injury to the opposite knee followed by a rock climbing incident, motorcycle crash, and too much running as a young adult. I figure that hurting by your late 30s is a natural result of how you live in your 20s. :cool2:

I'm really not trying to hijack the thread here, and apologize for doing so. My intention was to be the "demotivator" poster child where it says something to the effect of "It may be that your purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.".

 

[coldwatercanada]

I frog kick 60% of the time and i do it in the class as well. I just find that when only 20-30 percent of your students are interested in it Ill just take them aside *Or set them up with extra pool time* and just work with them! Usually these are the students that want to advance there diving to the next level and that end up moving onto master divers or dive masters!

 

[Aaron_Grey]

Glad I'm on the 8th floor of my hotel, or I'm sure someone would have wondered exactly what I was doing laying on the floor infront of the television with a pair of fins flapping about.

lol I think we've all done that at some point! It really helps to practice a little out of the water where you can actually see over your shoulder to make sure you're doing it right.

 

[shoredivr]

If the pain was on the outside (lateral) part of the knee, I agree with iliotibial band insertion irritation, especially as the iliotibial band and the muscle that attaches it to the pelvis, t
Tensor fascia lata, are responsible for locking the knee in extension, as in the end of the frog kick.

It was probably your tibial attachment of the Ilialtibial band that became inflamed.
I would recommend practicing first without fins. Until the movement is comfortable and smooth, the fins can complicate the learning.
I'm still working on the back kick and find that I can do it without fins but have a much harder time when I put my fins on.
Baby Steps!

---------- Post Merged at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:05 AM ----------

Ok, possibly the medial coronary ligament that holds the medial meniscus to the tibia and femur. I think the exploration of possible sites of knee pain information is useful to anyone experiencing knee pain with this kick, and it is not a hijack.

In my case, it didn't seem to be the IT band. The pain was pretty localized to the medial part of the knee joint space, maybe extending inferiorly along the patellar tendon. It prompted an informal lunchtime chat with an orthopedic surgeon in the cafeteria. Rest, ice, and adding Motrin to my food pyramid for half a week took care of the pain, but there's still some occasional discomfort. My knees are bad anyway from youthful severe injury to the opposite knee followed by a rock climbing incident, motorcycle crash, and too much running as a young adult. I figure that hurting by your late 30s is a natural result of how you live in your 20s. :cool2:

I'm really not trying to hijack the thread here, and apologize for doing so. My intention was to be the "demotivator" poster child where it says something to the effect of "It may be that your purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.".