How those idiots (us) run out of air

[flots am]

I really don't see why the DMC's experience is in question here... Did she do something that was unbecoming of a professional?...

When guiding unknown divers you can never count on getting an accurate pressure. Especially with infrequent, task loaded divers and complex computers, you're just as likely to get some random number off the screen as the actual pressure.

If I need to keep track of other diver's pressures underwater, the only sign they need to know is "show me your gauge/computer".

Not really a slam on the new DM, but if someone is expecting you to "keep them safe" you actually have to watch them. Just like in computers and medicine, user-supplied data is always suspect. I'm not all that surprised that the OP said 1800 or whatever and actually had 500.

flots.

 

[danvolker]

Originally Posted by beanojones
ANd it showed in their utterly sloppy ocean behavior. (Behavior that would be dangerous in most ocean conditions, like, say the ocean conditions the OP was in) . .

Here is a group of GUE Divers the first day out of their Fundies class....some of these guys did not get a pass, but all had become far more efficient and skilled in the water than any thing BJ could possibly be describing--or hoping her own students could attain.....The Rec 1 students tend to look exactly like this on reefs as well.

Watch in HD
[video=youtube_share;GH7_q5ACzXA]http://youtu.be/GH7_q5ACzXA[/video]

 

[WheelsUSN]

Not really a slam on the new DM, but if someone is expecting you to "keep them safe" you actually have to watch them. Just like in computers and medicine, user-supplied data is always suspect. I'm not all that surprised that the OP said 1800 or whatever and actually had 500.

flots.

No matter what the customers might think, it is not the guide's job to " keep them safe". It is the guide's job to lead you to the most interesting parts of the dive site. If you are looking for someone to "keep you safe" you need to hire a divemaster to be your buddy and make it clear that you need a buddy, not a guide. It needs to be clear before the dive starts whether the DM is a guide or a buddy.

The fact that PADI does not require a DM who is acting as a guide (at least in the PADI Americas region) to have insurance is an indication that PADI does not feel that a guide is responsible for or has liability for the actions of certified divers who are following the guide.

 

[phoenix31tt]

And that's what I'm saying, a guide is just a guide.. If I'm on a hike I don't expect the guide to check my supplies to make sure I'm good to go.. All I expect him to do is show me the way and point stuff out...



If he were say teaching a class now that's a difference

 

[tracydr]

Bill, I hope you and Emily are having a ball in Bonaire, and that you are subjecting yourselves to the surface swim you have to do if you do a few direct ascents from, say, 20 feet.

You don't HAVE to shoot a bag to do a direct ascent. I did a good many of them off our charter boats in Puget Sound, before I ever saw a bag or got taught to use one, and certainly WAY before I could view deploying one safely as a routine event. You watch your gauge and you ascend at a controlled rate. Most of mine, in the beginning, involved losing my buddy and getting vertigo . . . but they were still somewhat controlled, even if I didn't enjoy them much.

When someone takes an OW class in a lot of places, that person gets trained to dive in a pool, and gets shown how to do a simple shore dive at a sheltered site. If you are lucky enough to learn somewhere where you have to do your OW dives off a boat, you'll learn more about descents and ascents, and how to find the boat and get back on it. But the person doing his OW dives off a boat will not learn about how to assess an entry for safety, or to select the best point to get in; he won't learn about surf or how to manage it.

Nobody comes out of OW with all the skills they need to be a well-rounded diver. We ALL had a lot to learn when we got our cards. And sometimes it's very difficult to know which hurdles will have to be jumped to get through a given dive in a safe fashion. I don't think it's rare for a novice diver to make a mistake assessing his own fitness for a given dive; and I think it's reprehensibly common for the dive professionals involved to reassure a marginal diver that "everything will be fine". The result is dives like the original story. In this case, a pair of what seem to be thoughtful and reflective people had a bad situation turn out okay, and learned something from it, and posted it so OTHER folks could learn the basic lesson, which is not to stay underwater when you are low on gas. A lesson which seems entirely intuitive, but apparently is not.

Regarding the video of the GUE OW class that beano goes on and on about . . . HERE is that video. Beano objects to the occasional instability of the divers -- you can see them briefly lose their balance and regain it. According to her, if the instructor talked less and did some kind of kinesthetic teaching, the students wouldn't wobble. My experience from teaching in Puget Sound is that these guys are rock stars for students doing their OW dives in dry suits. Have a look and see what you think, and how those students compare with what you see coming out of typical open water classes.

Thanks so much for posting this! I really enjoyed watching it. I'd love to take this class myself, although I imagine its quite expensive. What a great way to learn diving! I was impressed that they were learning with drysuits, despite obviously diving in warm, tropical water. That will certainly serve them well, considering where they all come from.

 

[PhilaDallas]

Great thread. I learned a lot. Mostly that I need to start adding dives to my current count.

 

[flots am]

No matter what the customers might think, it is not the guide's job to " keep them safe".

I I know the DM can't keep me safe.

Vacation divers, however could make a really good case that the DM supplied for their dive is there to ensure their safety.

If you ask any random group of 100 vacation divers if the DM is there to enhance or provide safety services, I'd bet that almost all of them would say "yes".

Maybe some lawyers here can chime in.

flots

 

[uncfnp]

I I know the DM can't keep me safe.

Vacation divers, however could make a really good case that the DM supplied for their dive is there to ensure their safety.

If you ask any random group of 100 vacation divers if the DM is there to enhance or provide safety services, I'd bet that almost all of them would say "yes".

Maybe some lawyers here can chime in.

flots

Vacation diver here. Don't want, don't need a babysitter. I do however appreciate a good guide that can show me the best of the reef. But if he/she gets into trouble, I'll be glad to help them out.

I admit that there is evidence to the contrary in this thread but like every other group, not all vacation divers are created equal.

 

[maniago]

I admit that there is evidence to the contrary in this thread but like every other group, not all vacation divers are created equal.

Additional significance to this is to note that maybe many if not most vacation divers are not regular posters on SB, inferring a skewed set of comments. Could also be way wrong, but it is worth pondering when reading the thread...

 

[supergaijin]

I think that guides do themselves a dis-service at times.

Evaluation of the divers' in-water abilities can be poor, then the site chosen can be poor. Followed by a briefing which can be poor. Little or no buddy team allocation. Little or no gas management etc. etc.

The group hits the water, is led to a maximum depth straight away. One diver has equalisation trouble. One diver is breathing hard on the tank. One diver is still trying to sort out a leaking mask. All of these things should have been addressed in the shallows before making the 'real' descent. The dive turns in to a cluster, the guide bitches about them at the end of the day over beers, and the guests end up on Scubaboard.

If the top-side things are worked out properly, the underwater stuff is pretty dang easy.

Honest appraisal of diver ability.
Appropriate dive site chosen for the 'weakest link'.
Briefings that cover a bit more than 'red fish, blue fish'. eg. Gas management, Buddy teams, Recalls etc.
Start the dive shallow, then descend to depth, have fun, ascend, DISCO.

I really have to wonder if that was your opinion, or if you just disliked that you felt I was disagreeing with you.

Disagreement is good! I'm trying to project myself a little in to the OP's shoes and give advice for his skill level. Dan Volkner and yours is quite different.