How those idiots (us) run out of air

[MXGratefulDiver]

If that means disappointing the experienced divers for one day, so be it- there's always tomorrow.

... easy to say when you live there ... not so easy when you just paid $5000 for a 7-day trip to a place that may for you be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Depth is easy to control but currents are trickier to predict. The channels in Laamu Atoll can rip... or be completely placid. Tide, wind+direction + oceanic current+direction all play a part. Usually beginners can start and end their dive along the outer wall. It is up to the guide to judge correctly the distance to the channel entrance (while underwater) and act accordingly. This is where the 'professionals' set themselves apart- I hope one day to pay ourselves accordingly

Those channels command respect ... they are among the most challenging conditions I've ever experienced in tropical waters. Add in that in some cases the walls descend well below depths that a recreational diver should ever go to, and how easy it is for a diver not paying attention to find themselves way deeper than they intended to be (particularly while riding current), and they are places that an inexperienced diver probably has no business going to (IMO).

Check dives don't need to mean 'skills on the knees'. In NZ we never made 'check dives'. However the first dive should be a chilled dive. Afternoons are perfect for this. Unfortunately some travelers arrive too late the first day to participate and want to dive the next morning. A bit of planning (read: breaking your mind) can normally find a way around this to please the majority.

You can please some of the people some of the time....

This is where setting expectations ahead of time makes an important difference. I can be real accommodating with a dive op that's up-front about their policies during the planning stages of a trip. I'm way less forgiving of one that tells us when we arrive that we'll be diving at boring sites (or not at all) until they can establish our credentials as divers.

You can't please all the people all the time ... but you can at least respect that people who pay a lot of money and make a great deal of effort to visit a place halfway around the world come there with expectations vastly different than those who get to dive those sites every day. Establishing expectations and policies at the time of booking is vastly important ... and can go a great distance toward pleasing more of the people more of the time ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added July 10th, 2013 at 08:16 AM ----------

I remember reading, not too long ago, a discussion where a whole bunch of folks were saying that they'd be thoroughly annoyed if they paid to go someplace exotic to dive and had to do their first dive in a "nothing" site for purposes of dive operator evaluation of their skills. It's a shame that people are like that. When I go somewhere new, I don't mind at all a shallow, undemanding first dive -- it gives me a chance to make sure my weighting is right for that water, and that all my gear is working and nothing has suffered in transport. It also gets ME into shape and focus. And honestly, if a dive operator is given the information to allow them to match my skills with their sites, I'm much more likely to have a splendid experience with them. If I'm not up to handling sheer walls with no bottom, or strong currents, I certainly don't want somebody throwing me in the water to deal with those things.

I don't mind either ... except in situations where such a policy means losing a whole day of diving, or where the "checkout dive" proves to be little more than a 40-minute sales pitch and a demonstration of basic skills conducted while kneeling on the bottom. Such a policy achieves nothing useful, and only wastes limited time.

FWIW - checkout dives like those we did in Bonaire, which were conducted almost as soon as we arrived, or on my trip to the Maldives, which was at a benign but interesting reef, have real value.

I guess the point is that how a checkout dive is conducted is at least as important as that it's conducted ... dive ops need to be cognizant of their clientelle ... if they have travelled long distances at great expense to be there, then getting them to the dive sites they came for is hugely important.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Adobo]

I remember reading, not too long ago, a discussion where a whole bunch of folks were saying that they'd be thoroughly annoyed if they paid to go someplace exotic to dive and had to do their first dive in a "nothing" site for purposes of dive operator evaluation of their skills. It's a shame that people are like that. When I go somewhere new, I don't mind at all a shallow, undemanding first dive -- it gives me a chance to make sure my weighting is right for that water, and that all my gear is working and nothing has suffered in transport. It also gets ME into shape and focus. And honestly, if a dive operator is given the information to allow them to match my skills with their sites, I'm much more likely to have a splendid experience with them. If I'm not up to handling sheer walls with no bottom, or strong currents, I certainly don't want somebody throwing me in the water to deal with those things.

One time, I went to Maui with my family. I had the opportunity to dive 3 or 4 days during the trip. On the first two days I dove, I went out on a charter that took us to the outer wall of Molikini crater. Very nice dive but not at all trivial. The dive has what seems like a gentle slope but if you don't pay attention, you can get deep fast. Also, the ascent is essentially a blue water ascent as the boat is not anchored. The operator also mentions current as a consideration though the times I dove there, current didn't seem to be an issue.

On the third day of diving, on the ride out to the crater, I overheard one group talking about "refresher course". I also overheard another group where a DM was explaining to another diver that "you push this button to go up and you push that button to go down."

Now, I did not know any of those people. They were a different bunch than the ones I was on the boat with previously. But I suspected that these divers were perhaps new/inexperienced/not current with their skills. So I walked to the captain of the boat and said to him, "I heard that the inner part of the crater is shallow (40ish ft in most places) and protected. I'd love to do that dive." To which he replied, "the outer part of the crater is the signature dive for Maui. If weather permits, we are diving the outer part."

So I left it at that.

During the dive, at certain points, I found myself all alone at ~100ft (I was diving 32%). The rest of the group in those times were deeper than me. Of course, it did not take long before people started bailing on the dive. I guess it doesn't take long for new/inexperienced/not current with skills divers to go through an al80 when portions of the dive are being conducted at 110-120ft.

I guess my point is, my experience is that some operators seem to come to different conclusion as far as matching skills of their clients and the dive sites that are appropriate than what some of us in the interwebs might come to. Although to be fair, no incidents took place on that dive. And I know of no incidents from that dive from that operator. So I guess they could argue that their practice is perfectly safe.

 

[MrChen]

This has been an interesting thread that I stopped reading initially after the 2nd page. But it just kept popping up as an active thread that, I kept ignoring, but I figured something good must be going on and I read all 27 pages today. Wow is all I can say. I want to thank everyone for sharing their experiences and not giving up on the OP. It helps us newer divers reinforce what we should be thinking when found in these situations. It helps program what our instinctual reactions should be.

Having learned to dive in Jupiter, I'm amazed that many of the basic skills required to dive in my area are not well practiced by all divers. It makes sense once I think about, shoot I know nothing about dry suits etc, but I can open water ascend and deploy my smb in a current.

This thread should go down as one of those must reads. The refusal of the OP to accept the criticism as positive reinforcement elevated this thread to something greater than the title of the thread deserves.

 

[doctormike]

The refusal of the OP to accept the criticism as positive reinforcement elevated this thread to something greater than the title of the thread deserves.

You must have missed the part in the middle where he gave in and accepted the advice...

 

[MrChen]

You must have missed the part in the middle where he gave in and accepted the advice...

No I saw it and that's part of what made this a great thread.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[doctormike]

No I saw it and that's part of what made this a great thread.

Yes, this thread has it all - hubris, near tragedy, anger, redemption, and acceptance... I see it being made into a major motion picture...

 

[MrChen]

Yes, this thread has it all - hubris, near tragedy, anger, redemption, and acceptance... I see it being made into a major motion picture...

Queue the cowboy riding into the sunset. Oh wait, wrong movie.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[billt4sf]

Yes, this thread has it all - hubris, near tragedy, anger, redemption, and acceptance... I see it being made into a major motion picture...

Starring .... ME !!

(that's intended to be a note of sarcasm, folks)

- Bill

 

[maniago]

Starring .... ME !!

(that's intended to be a note of sarcasm, folks)

- Bill

You created a monster, and it seems to have gotten a life of its own. You should change your name to Dr Frankenscubastein!

 

[billt4sf]

... easy to say when you live there ... not so easy when you just paid $5000 for a 7-day trip to a place that may for you be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

People were posting about how dive ops could better ensure safety by diving with the vacation diver, etc. This is all well and good, but I want to reiterate that the most important simple thing that dive ops could do is the talk to the diver that is visiting them.

There are really two parts to this: 1) before the trip and 2) when the diver first arrives in the area.

1) On this current trip, we have been to the Keys, to St. Eustatius, and to Bonaire. In the keys, we were set to dive the Spiegel Grove wreck until I posted on SB and found that there could be very strong currents that weren't necessarily even detectable at the surface. Silent World poohpooed that and really minimized it as a concern even after I mentioned it. So we cancelled on that and chose another dive site. Similarly, I had heard great things about the island Saba, I wanted to go there, talked to the dive op Sea Saba and it sounded wonderful. Then I found out on SB that the diving is deep (often 70 ft or more) and currents are common. So we choose St. Eustatius instead. I could come up with other examples.

The point here is that dive ops are not honest about the skills one needs when you are thinking of booking. My opinion, my experience. YMMV.

2) When we show up at a dive op, typically it's "Please sign the release, do you need any rental gear?, the boat is waiting for you." Almost never any discussion of the skills required. Usually there's a dive briefing on the boat but that's not what I am referring to -- I am asking for a discussion of the dive situation before you get in the boat. Sit down and interview us -- how many dives? What about currents? Do you have an SMB / whistle? Do you know how to orally inflate the BCD you are carrying / renting? And simply: what's your level of confidence about this-or-that situation? That doesn't take more than 5 minutes, and would help the dive op stay away from trouble and the increases the chance of happy divers = repeat business for them.

Really, I wonder why the certifying agencies don't institute some sort of requirement around these issues. It wouldn't even have to be legally enforceable, an expected "common practice" would be enough.

So overall my point is that it would be great if dive ops did checkout dives with their clients but it would be even more nice if they were a) honest before you book, and b) reviewed skill requirements against your diving experience before you get on the boat so they can adjust where they take you.

Thanks,

Bill (a.k.a. Frankenscubastein)