How those idiots (us) run out of air

[DougK]

My work, which has nothing to do with diving, has a very interesting rule in the rule book that I think applies to this situation. I work in an industry that has a lot of rules and a pretty thick rule book.

WHEN IN DOUBT, TAKE THE SAFE COURSE.

In this situation the safest course of all would have been to head to the surface.


I do appreciate this tread it is very eye opening. But these things normally take on a life of themselves and go off course.

 

[supergaijin]

Well, firstly, I am not the one arguing.

I said you were being 'argumentative' which I think is counter-productive. There may be a situation where the 'standard procedure' may be the wrong thing to. In the case mentioned before- it was 'wrong' to be positively buoyant. However this is one case weighed against many where positive buoyancy on the surface saves lives.

'Argument' is a good thing. I think that positive buoyancy is good because it prevents many small problems escalating- especially at the level of many of the divers reading this thread. Not inflating can and does mean inhalation of water. Cough the air from your lungs and you start to sink. When I drove small dive boats in NZ, partially submerged logs were very difficult to see. Don't be that log. Get up and get visible.

Basic Scuba is about asking basic questions - that doesn't mean (IMO) that the answers should be 'dumbed down' or quoted from the PADI manual.

No argument there My advice may sound 'textbook', but I will continue to advise that for the OP (and others who are at a similar level in their diving), surfacing and inflating is a very good thing. My reasoning is that the number of divers that have accidents from not establishing positive buoyancy outweigh those run down by propellors. A slow final ascent is recommended from a DCI point of view as well as giving time to 'listen' for boats. Win-win in my 'textbook'.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So you signed her the wrong tank pressure, she saved your life anyway, and now you are criticizing both her decision to get you to the line before the ascent AND mocking her diving credentials?

... I'd be criticizing the dive op that entrusted someone with 80 dives to a leadership position ... it's the extremely rare person who would be even remotely qualified for that kind of responsibility with that little experience. It's a sad statement on the state of diver expectations that the bar for "dive pro" is that low ... it's like entrusting a 15-year old with driving a school bus ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added July 9th, 2013 at 05:51 AM ----------

No argument there My advice may sound 'textbook', but I will continue to advise that for the OP (and others who are at a similar level in their diving), surfacing and inflating is a very good thing. My reasoning is that the number of divers that have accidents from not establishing positive buoyancy outweigh those run down by propellors. A slow final ascent is recommended from a DCI point of view as well as giving time to 'listen' for boats. Win-win in my 'textbook'.

Ironically, the closest I came to injury when diving in your part of the world was getting run down by one of those pretty little day boats ... fortunately, someone on board decided to look forward and turned the boat just before it ran us over ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[maniago]

... I'd be criticizing the dive op that entrusted someone with 80 dives to a leadership position ... it's the extremely rare person who would be even remotely qualified for that kind of responsibility with that little experience. It's a sad statement on the state of diver expectations that the bar for "dive pro" is that low ... it's like entrusting a 15-year old with driving a school bus ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

oh come on now. You know that poor playing positions seek the appropriate experience equilibrium. I wouldn't expect you with your thousands of dives, mortgage, kids in college, 5 cars etc to be DM'ing in paradise for pennies. You can't expect whats not realistic. That said, you don't know if her mentor was Jean Michelle Cousteau and 60 of her 80 dives were deep wreck penetration under his guidance in the same waters she's teaching.

The moral goes back to, and has always been for this thread, expect only what's reasonable from your DM, and take care of yourself.

 

[Tortuga68]

I said you were being 'argumentative' which I think is counter-productive

Actually what you said was that my 'argument' (which I would instead call my viewpoint, perspective or comment) was counterproductive to the thread, and you implied that I was going beyond the scope of the forum. I really have to wonder if that was your opinion, or if you just disliked that you felt I was disagreeing with you. And in your post above, you again refer to OOG ("inhaling water" which was not the scenario I was commenting on (LOG).

Anyway, now it IS becoming an argument so I'll leave you to post your views unopposed

 

[doctormike]

... I'd be criticizing the dive op that entrusted someone with 80 dives to a leadership position ... it's the extremely rare person who would be even remotely qualified for that kind of responsibility with that little experience. It's a sad statement on the state of diver expectations that the bar for "dive pro" is that low ... it's like entrusting a 15-year old with driving a school bus ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yes, I generally agree with you. I don't think that people should consider turning pro until they are very comfortable and experienced divers themselves.

But on the other hand, we don't know much about this DMC other than the fact that she saved the OPs life after he signed 1800 PSI when he had 1300 PSI, so I don't see how it helps to ridicule this person's skills based on nothing...

Let's assume that she's a PADI DMC. That means that she has twice the number of dives required to start the course, and has AOW and Rescue. OK, there's a bell curve for everything, and just being a DMC doesn't mean that she's a great diver. But I don't see much in the story to suggest otherwise... And maybe the dive op on this island doesn't have a pool of people with 500 dives who want to become DMs for him.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

oh come on now. You know that poor playing positions seek the appropriate experience equilibrium. I wouldn't expect you with your thousands of dives, mortgage, kids in college, 5 cars etc to be DM'ing in paradise for pennies. You can't expect whats not realistic. That said, you don't know if her mentor was Jean Michelle Cousteau and 60 of her 80 dives were deep wreck penetration under his guidance in the same waters she's teaching.

The moral goes back to, and has always been for this thread, expect only what's reasonable from your DM, and take care of yourself.

... I don't have any kids, drive a car with nearly 200,000 miles on it, and have plans to move to paradise and seek a job paying pennies in about four years ... when I "retire".

But as is evident from the first reply in this thread, I completely agree with the notion that divers need to take care of themselves.

That said, I still don't believe that anyone who has that little experience should be in any manner considered a "dive pro". Being a professional means ... by definition ... that you know what you're doing. Nobody with 80 dives has sufficient experience to truly qualify for that title.

These positions pay so little, and hold so little respect, exactly because it takes next to nothing to get one ... which is precisely why one shouldn't be doing "trust me" dives. Unfortunately, those are exactly the type of dives most divers are trained for.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[fjpatrum]

... I don't have any kids, drive a car with nearly 200,000 miles on it, and have plans to move to paradise and seek a job paying pennies in about four years ... when I "retire".

But as is evident from the first reply in this thread, I completely agree with the notion that divers need to take care of themselves.

That said, I still don't believe that anyone who has that little experience should be in any manner considered a "dive pro". Being a professional means ... by definition ... that you know what you're doing. Nobody with 80 dives has sufficient experience to truly qualify for that title.

These positions pay so little, and hold so little respect, exactly because it takes next to nothing to get one ... which is precisely why one shouldn't be doing "trust me" dives. Unfortunately, those are exactly the type of dives most divers are trained for.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Not to pick too many nits, but "being professional by definition" does NOT mean you know what you're doing. It means you're getting paid to do something. There is absolutely no stipulation that you actually be good at something to be a professional at it. There may be a reasonable expectation, but it's not part of the definition.

I agree with your point, no "pro" diver should be a "pro" with less than a hundred dives. I don't know what the magic number should be but I think it should be higher, even for the "natural" divers. That said, I just did some dives with my non-pro buddy who's right around 90 dives and I'd be very comfortable with him as a "pro" because he acts like a pro. Sure, he has a lot to learn (don't we all) but it's his actions and his behavior that make me say he'd be a good pro.

Now, I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is no one I trust implicitly to take care of me and get me out of trouble. The only person I count on is myself. If my buddy (pro or non pro) happens to be there too, all the better. Relying on anyone else to keep you safe is a bad choice.

 

[tracydr]

Good for you - get the heck outta here and go diving! All the gnashing of teeth and bar bubbles here is fun, if not even good learning, but its the water we live for so go get wet and enjoy. And be safe!

---------- Post added July 6th, 2013 at 08:51 AM ----------



Sorry everyone, stupid question, but is a blue water ascent the same as a free ascent, ie ascent (and safety stop) without reference save for your computer? If so, I do these at least half the time in the quarries, but blue water it sure aint! I didn't know it was of special significance, and was not really trained that it had special significance....

Or is it a CESA from extreme depth?

Yes, it's an ascent without a reference from an anchor line or other line to go up and down. If you're not using a dive flag line or bouyancy than you're doing a free ascent.
I did them all the time from the start of my diving 18 years ago, too and didn't know they were difficult, either. Although recently, I've been concentrating on slowing my ascent rate. I think I haven't been going slow enough. But, for 18 years it seemed to work just fine.

---------- Post added July 9th, 2013 at 07:59 AM ----------

Good for you - get the heck outta here and go diving! All the gnashing of teeth and bar bubbles here is fun, if not even good learning, but its the water we live for so go get wet and enjoy. And be safe!

---------- Post added July 6th, 2013 at 08:51 AM ----------



Sorry everyone, stupid question, but is a blue water ascent the same as a free ascent, ie ascent (and safety stop) without reference save for your computer? If so, I do these at least half the time in the quarries, but blue water it sure aint! I didn't know it was of special significance, and was not really trained that it had special significance....

Or is it a CESA from extreme depth?

Yes, it's an ascent without a reference from an anchor line or other line to go up and down. If you're not using a dive flag line or bouyancy than you're doing a free ascent.
I did them all the time from the start of my diving 18 years ago, too and didn't know they were difficult, either. Although recently, I've been concentrating on slowing my ascent rate. I didn't own an SMB, either. I'd never seen or heard of one until about 7-8 years ago.
DD- I love your method of using a weighted line. I think for a beginner that's a great way, p,us it saves some money on a spool, always important for those reluctant to spend money on a spool and SMB.

Bill-
one way I found to practice playing with line in the water, which is very safe and great fun in Bonaire, if you happen to like fishing a little bit- go out to the east side of the island, Lac Bay, right where there is a big pile of conch shells, its where you can swim out to the east dive sites ( do NOT do these, way too hard for you) and go snorkel fishing for bonefish! They come into that bay in great schools and it is just about the most fun. Wear a wing to give you some floatation for safety, or a light wetsuit, some fins and buy yourself a cheap spool of fishing line and a fly at the nearest store. You may want to buy the fly at an REI before leaving for Bonaire.They sell the spools all over the place. My father, fly fishing expert, brought his flies with him and loaned a couple to us, after he went to a fly fishing store in Phoenix and found the best ones to use. My father fly fished from shore. People pay huge bucks to go fly fishing with guides for bonefish in the US!
We would dangle the line with a fly in front of the bonefish and watch as they became interested, bit and took off, then pull them in on the spool. It was so fun to actually watch the fish doing this under the surface, like fishing in an aquarium!
I think this was one of best things we did the whole two weeks in Bonaire, as much as I can't get enough of diving, we spent 1 1/2 entire days doing this and it was just a kick! We took my parents and they are non-divers, so made some time for them, although they busied themselves on the beach and taking hikes a lot while we dived.
This could give you plenty of experience handling line in water, too.
Oh, you don't need a license and the bonefish aren't edible so you release all of them. If you catch something edible, give it to one of the locals. They hang around and will ask you if you would mind giving it to them.
We also tried this technique with lures on the west side in a remote northern area around the oil tanks but didn't have any luck. I'd highly recommend Lac Bay. It's a very pretty area, especially if you have a day that you need to take off from diving, like the day before flying home.
Eat at the little shack, too. Great seafood!

---------- Post added July 9th, 2013 at 08:00 AM ----------

Good for you - get the heck outta here and go diving! All the gnashing of teeth and bar bubbles here is fun, if not even good learning, but its the water we live for so go get wet and enjoy. And be safe!

---------- Post added July 6th, 2013 at 08:51 AM ----------



Sorry everyone, stupid question, but is a blue water ascent the same as a free ascent, ie ascent (and safety stop) without reference save for your computer? If so, I do these at least half the time in the quarries, but blue water it sure aint! I didn't know it was of special significance, and was not really trained that it had special significance....

Or is it a CESA from extreme depth?

Bill-Bonaire will be a great place to practice going up in nice clear water with minimal current, if you pick a place like one of the house reefs or somewhere fairly close to the center of the island. Just start in about 20 feet of water and go from there. I find it much easier to ascend in clear water than dark, low vis, cold water. Plus, you don't have to manage the extra air bubble of your drysuit to start.

 

[phoenix31tt]

@ Bob:

I really don't see why the DMC's experience is in question here... Did she do something that was unbecoming of a professional?... did the dive shop do something irresponsible by having her as a GUIDE, within the standards placed upon them by their affiliate (whether padi or naui or whatever)?

I can understand the personal views based on experience that a diver should not be considered a pro until they have a certain amount of dives... but in this case i dont see why the shop or dmc should be chastised.

Additionally, i'm with the view of the guys that say regardless of level, a DM or instructor or anybody guiding a dive is... a GUIDE!!! and should be treated as such... can I be a guide @ 80 dives? Hell yea... (granted i've had a fair number of those dives in the guided location of course)