If I'm paying $1000 for an OW class, it better not depend on the other studentskidspot:
How much would you have been willing to pay a good instructor?
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i'd say it depends on the students time frame and expectation. however you would expect that the student would be getting a lot of inputs even opposing ones from what was informed earlier.
And how much the students budget is. There are those who don't care about the cost but what matters to them is their comfortability during the course. hence they are wiling to take it slow and on their time not groups time.
then there are those that would like to just take the course for formality to have a cert and go diving the soonest with minimal cost.
then there are those that would like to be cert without the pain of training and and cost. these are those that consistently asks for discounts and these are also the people from whom you will get a lot of complaints. and most probably these are the guys who when in an accident of their own negligence would be seeking compensation and other people to blame .
And how much the students budget is. There are those who don't care about the cost but what matters to them is their comfortability during the course. hence they are wiling to take it slow and on their time not groups time.
then there are those that would like to just take the course for formality to have a cert and go diving the soonest with minimal cost.
then there are those that would like to be cert without the pain of training and and cost. these are those that consistently asks for discounts and these are also the people from whom you will get a lot of complaints. and most probably these are the guys who when in an accident of their own negligence would be seeking compensation and other people to blame .
If you want instructors to be able to earn a decent living, you have to approach the question of pay from the back side. What's a reasonable annual wage? Though most scuba instructors probably shouldn't be teaching, those that have the skills as both an educator and diver to qualify them to teach folks how to dive ought to be able to make $50,000 per year in a major metro market. (Yeah, I know, dream on)
40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year = 2000 hours.
Cut the hours in half, since there is work to be done that isn't going to be directly productive, such as marketing and bookkeeping and maintenance and administrative and...so a full time instructor should have about 1000 class hours available each year.
But, of course, grossing $50,000 isn't what you make. You have to pay for travel and insurance and equipment and class/pool/quarry fees and lawyers and accountants and continuing education and etc., so the gross needs to be about twice the desired net.
1000 hours into $100,000 means each class hour has to produce $100 per hour or $4000 per 40 hour class to allow our instructor to net $50,000. Four students, 40 hour class, $1000 per student.
I think the average in Chicago is about $375.00 per student, of course they are only getting about 30 hours of instructor time and there are a whole lot more than 4 in the class. Compromises...
40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year = 2000 hours.
Cut the hours in half, since there is work to be done that isn't going to be directly productive, such as marketing and bookkeeping and maintenance and administrative and...so a full time instructor should have about 1000 class hours available each year.
But, of course, grossing $50,000 isn't what you make. You have to pay for travel and insurance and equipment and class/pool/quarry fees and lawyers and accountants and continuing education and etc., so the gross needs to be about twice the desired net.
1000 hours into $100,000 means each class hour has to produce $100 per hour or $4000 per 40 hour class to allow our instructor to net $50,000. Four students, 40 hour class, $1000 per student.
I think the average in Chicago is about $375.00 per student, of course they are only getting about 30 hours of instructor time and there are a whole lot more than 4 in the class. Compromises...
mike_s
Contributor
I think a lot of it depends on what you get.
I used to think the Dive Resorts in the Caribbean charged way to much for certification. They wanted $350 to $400 easily for certification.
In the area I live in. You can get Basic Open Water (BOW) for anywhere from $180 to $300+. But what you get all depends also on the price.
For $180, that's the class only and not the $45 worth of books, but they sell it with the books also (total price is $235). Most of the dive shops here do something similar, but just different pricing. (all include equipment and air fills for the class)
What is not included is the check out dives. That's because some people decide to go on long weekend Florida trips for $300-$500 or Caribbean trips for more. Others decide to go to the local quarry for $18 bucks a day for checkout dives.
But the Caribbean dive resorts charging the equivalent of $350 or more that seemed high to me makes sense if you do a little math. Lets say that a 2 tank boat dive costs about $65 or $75. Doing 4 or 5 dives for certification checkout easily make up the difference between the local price of $250(+/-) and the resort price of $350-$400.
So it's all in what you get for the price that is part of the issue of costs and what you should pay for instruction.
As for instructors charging more, I don't think that'll happen much. Most instructors are associated with dive shops, who set the price. They often keep the course price low to attract customers or beat competitors prices. They hope to make this back in initial and repeat gear sales on this new customer.
I personally don't see how they make any money on classes anyway. At $230 to $250 per class, for having to take 4 days over 4 different weekends. If they taught 5 students at $250 each that'd be $1,250 for the class. It would take the instructor typically 4 days of his time. Then there are fees to the dive association (padi, naui, etc), insurance, shop overhead, equipment (for students, instructor, etc), air fills, transporation, wear and tear on all of the above, etc. Heck, I'd say they are loosing money almost.....
my 2 cents worth.
-mike
I used to think the Dive Resorts in the Caribbean charged way to much for certification. They wanted $350 to $400 easily for certification.
In the area I live in. You can get Basic Open Water (BOW) for anywhere from $180 to $300+. But what you get all depends also on the price.
For $180, that's the class only and not the $45 worth of books, but they sell it with the books also (total price is $235). Most of the dive shops here do something similar, but just different pricing. (all include equipment and air fills for the class)
What is not included is the check out dives. That's because some people decide to go on long weekend Florida trips for $300-$500 or Caribbean trips for more. Others decide to go to the local quarry for $18 bucks a day for checkout dives.
But the Caribbean dive resorts charging the equivalent of $350 or more that seemed high to me makes sense if you do a little math. Lets say that a 2 tank boat dive costs about $65 or $75. Doing 4 or 5 dives for certification checkout easily make up the difference between the local price of $250(+/-) and the resort price of $350-$400.
So it's all in what you get for the price that is part of the issue of costs and what you should pay for instruction.
As for instructors charging more, I don't think that'll happen much. Most instructors are associated with dive shops, who set the price. They often keep the course price low to attract customers or beat competitors prices. They hope to make this back in initial and repeat gear sales on this new customer.
I personally don't see how they make any money on classes anyway. At $230 to $250 per class, for having to take 4 days over 4 different weekends. If they taught 5 students at $250 each that'd be $1,250 for the class. It would take the instructor typically 4 days of his time. Then there are fees to the dive association (padi, naui, etc), insurance, shop overhead, equipment (for students, instructor, etc), air fills, transporation, wear and tear on all of the above, etc. Heck, I'd say they are loosing money almost.....
my 2 cents worth.
-mike
I think that a big part of the problem is that when I signed up for my OW classes, I was just looking for the closest instructor and a decent deal $ wise. I met the instructor and he talked the talk and seemed like he would walk the walk. I was impressed. What did I know? I was wrong. He was a disaster. I paid my money, got my card and ran. At least I knew that I had not learned enough and searched out others to learn what he had not taught me.
Now I have found the type of instructor that you are referring to and I would have easily paid more to have learned from him at the start.....now that I know what I know. I doubt you could have talked me into driving almost 2 hours for classes and confined water and at least 2 hours for OW unless you were really convincing and knew both instructors and warned me about the one and convinced me of the other.
The problem is that when you are starting you don't know what to expect and what you should be taught, let's face it you don't know much of anything. Unless you have people who are experienced and can give you GOOD advice most people are going to go with convenience that they "think" will give them the quality classes and instruction that they need. And I say GOOD advice because I have seen too many "experienced" divers giving really bad advice. Must have had my OW instructor :11:
Now I have found the type of instructor that you are referring to and I would have easily paid more to have learned from him at the start.....now that I know what I know. I doubt you could have talked me into driving almost 2 hours for classes and confined water and at least 2 hours for OW unless you were really convincing and knew both instructors and warned me about the one and convinced me of the other.
The problem is that when you are starting you don't know what to expect and what you should be taught, let's face it you don't know much of anything. Unless you have people who are experienced and can give you GOOD advice most people are going to go with convenience that they "think" will give them the quality classes and instruction that they need. And I say GOOD advice because I have seen too many "experienced" divers giving really bad advice. Must have had my OW instructor :11:
Don Burke
Contributor
It was more like $150 back in 1987 and I did more than consider it. I got certified through that instructor. I did not shop around. It sounded okay so I jumped on it.scubasean:
That would be a tough call. That was around the point in my life when I figured out how expensive it is to pay too little for something. It would come down to how experienced and how golden, hard things to quantify with the span of years.scubasean:
I had just bought my first house and was getting some experience with 9.75% for a loan rate. There were some gaps, but nothing dangerous.scubasean:
FWIW, my entire class (6 Sundays, 6 hours each) was $130. Only extra was $50 for the OW checkout dives.
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