How Much Should Certification Cost?

[divebunny13]

I got certified in San Diego and if I remember correctly, it was $350. This included my book, dive log, DVD, RDP, all rental equipment, pool fees and checkout dives. We were also given 10% equipment (we were required to have mask, fins, snorkel and booties but we didn't have to buy them at the shop) and we were given coupons for two free rentals after the class was completed. I am an instructor now and our resort OW course is $400. As far as equipment goes, buy what is comfortable for you. If you invest in good equipment, it will pay off in the end when you are comfortable in the water.

 

[GatorKev]

Check out my website. I charge $295 for OW plus book and admission fees. I supply air and equipment. I also limit my classes to no more than 4 students.

My issue isn't with their price. I could care less if they were giving it away for free. My issue is 5 hours allocated for pool time. By the time they arrive for the pool session, change into their wetsuits and set up their gear, they have already taken up about 1/2 an hour. 45 minutes in the pool, out of the water to change tanks (standards require gear disassembly and assembly between sessions), back in the water 20 minutes later. 45 minutes left in the pool session with 10 minutes for breakdown and gear rinse for night 1 to be finished. Same thing the next evening. This give the students 3 hours in the pool for 5 confined water sessions. Oh, and let's not forget the required watermanship skills. That alone will take at least 45 minutes.

When I did OW, we had 15 hours allocated to the pool. And I didn't think that was enough. Sure, you can probably get all the skills taught and checked off in that time period, but how comfortable are the students at them if they've only done them once or twice? I run my OW courses differently than most places, so we can't even compare them. But in comparing courses between dive shops, MBT is falling way short. They may be a great dive shop in other respects, but with only 5 hours allocated for pool time, which means less time in the water, they are missing the mark. They may even be in violation of standards. And for the record, I do believe 5 hours of pool time (read less than 5 hours wet) is truly unsafe...Cheers!

Went to your site, very nice by the way, looks like you might specialize in cave diving.. Pretty cool. Anyways you do state above that you charge $295 but you they also need to purchase materials in addition to it. Does that include trips to Vortex Springs with no extra cost? Awesome since admission is like $30-$40 per person in itself. Anyways you didn't answer the question of how long your students are in the Pool or Pond (is that still confined?). Your site says 5 confined water dives but how long are each of those dives. It also says "By the time you complete the course with us, you will have spent about 2-3 hours underwater". Does this mean just actual open water time or does it include pool/pond time? And about the 5 hours of pool time being unsafe, do you ever have people who you as an instructor know are ready in a shorter amont of time? As I had stated before, some will need longer than others and on the MBT site it says "You progress to each next step when YOU and your instructor feel you are ready. Our enjoyable “no pressure” program allows you to receive as much extra work as necessary to make you a comfortable and competent diver!" As I am sure you do with yours (site and students), the site shows a basic minimum requirement. If the person is not ready or "comfortable" you do not send them to the next level. Do we know how they actually break down that time at the pool or how much time is actually spent in the pool with out speculation? For all we know they show the hours as actual time in the pool. Please do not assume. I was with them for one pool session doing some training on comunication masks with a dive buddy for my reenlistment and the class was in the water before 6 and was still in there when I left at 8:30. From personal experience being around them they would not push someone through the course and would make sure that they are comfortable before they advance them. Now I am going to head back to check out your site some more... Love to look at cool dive sites.

 

[oly5050user]

Yes indeed. Thanks for coming to my defense. The class and books, log book, and private instruction came to just over $300. This price included all gear (outside of the basics) and air. Also I am free to come to the pool whenever I feel like it as much as I want to practice skills I have learned...oh, without charging me for any gear rental and free air whenever I come in. My gear was about $280, I didn't get cheap stuff that I would have to replace anytime soon. And as far as the rest of my gear to purchase... I am not going skimpy on that either... I am getting high gear that should last me a good long time both allowing me to "grow into it" per say as I gain more skill, and in quality. Ie: lady hawk back float (air2), ScubaPro mk 17gv/g250v reg, uwatech smart z wrist hoseless computer, weight for integrated bc, Henderson hyperstrech 7m, hood and gloves, 2 steel tanks, and other misc gear. As far as the price.... I was estimating the cost. Pardon me for not giving a more accurrate number from a sales slip! About $3000 is probably more reasonable.. unless I decide on some other things to tack on.

It may seem excessive to get so much so soon, but this is something I WILL be doing for a long time. I could have gotten cheaper gear true, but my bf wants to get me geared up for any type of diving we may want to do... Our budget for gear will decrease considerably once we get married and have 4 children to support together, so we are getting all mine now. Not to mention I will be purchasing a dry suit in the next year because of the cold temps where I am. Was figuring in ALL of my gear in that $3000-$4000 range. It was not the lds that suggested the gear but our choice to select that gear.

Overall, I don't think I did that bad!

Tricia,thankyou for clearing things up.A previous poster stated that the cost I gave for books and gear was way off.Things cost what they cost.
As I said it can cost $1500. to $4000. Better off to give a high estimate than a low one.A previous poster (nick w) believes that all you need to dive is a bcd,regulator and computer.He failed to think of an exposure suit-hood-boots-gloves-mask-fins-snorkel-weights/belt or harness,lights a bag to carry everything,etc..I applaud you for doing what YOU want to do.
You sound like a very realistic person and the vibes I get are that you will truly enjoy diving and the lifestyle it will cause.Have fun.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

And yet we are not awash with the dead bodies of poorly trained OW students...

Excellent point! Obviously, diving is not as dangerous as many would like to believe or this would be the case.

Which brings me to a pet issue...

If you really believe that your life is in danger each time you dive, then you should find another hobby, to continue anyway is just plain stupid. If you need to build-up the danger aspect to satisfy some macho death-defying thrill seeker thing, then you should find another hobby because you'll soon find SCUBA too tame anyway. Try sky diving. I hear that's where most go when they find diving isn't dangerous enough.

But, back to the question...

If like me you believe that scuba diving is not a death defying activity, at least for most of us anyway, then the issue of training is different. How much should training cost? It should cost over $1,000, but the price is kept artifically low because of competition from part time instructors who don't need to earn a living. Some P/T instructors will even acknowlege that they loose money, but do it because they enjoy it. Go figure... I think that's why at least one agency now requires instructors to be afilliated with a shop. That may be the way of the future.

Anyway, if we were to pay what the OW course should cost without this uneven playing field, it would be more like the more advanced classes that can cost $1,000 or more. The reason being is that even P/T instructors can't afford to do a Trimix class for less than cost, and there are fewer instructors that can teach at this level, so the prices are not kept artificially low.

So, it should cost $1,000, but it doesn't. Since it isn't a death-defying activing, most any instructor can get you into, and hopefull back out of, the water safely. So find a moderately priced class with an instructor that appeals to you. More than likely you'll survive the experience.

 

[Thalassamania]

Excellent point! Obviously, diving is not as dangerous as many would like to believe or this would be the case.

No, but what we are awash in is people who tried to learn to dive and dropped out. I suspect that's because they never felt like the had learned to dive and they never felt safe.

Which brings me to a pet issue...

If you really believe that your life is in danger each time you dive, then you should find another hobby, to continue anyway is just plain stupid. If you need to build-up the danger aspect to satisfy some macho death-defying thrill seeker thing, then you should find another hobby because you'll soon find SCUBA too tame anyway. Try sky diving. I hear that's where most go when they find diving isn't dangerous enough.

You make my point perfectly, that's exactly what I expect happens to 80% of the people who begin a dive class.

But, back to the question...

If like me you believe that scuba diving is not a death defying activity, at least for most of us anyway, then the issue of training is different. How much should training cost? It should cost over $1,000

If you train with me, it does.

but the price is kept artifically low because of competition from part time instructors who don't need to earn a living. Some P/T instructors will even acknowlege that they loose money, but do it because they enjoy it. Go figure... I think that's why at least one agency now requires instructors to be afilliated with a shop. That may be the way of the future.

An interesting flight of fancy, you're not perchance a copywritter for SSI are you? Lets look at the question logically: "Professional" Diving instructors at a shop make about $12.00 an hour, they rarely get any benefits and they are expected to work as sales clerks, stock boys and janitors as well. Even so, with current pricing, most shops claim to loose money on diving instruction but say that they continue to offer it as a "loss leader" so that they can sell gear.

I hardly think that is is the independent instructors who have driven instructor pay down. There is, and has been historically, great pressure from the shops to increase the supply of diving instructors. First they wanted the age lowered from 21 to 18, then they got various standards reductions, now they're lobbying for the elimination of any classroom teaching evaluation based on the canard that eLearning does it better. It's the cannon fodder approach to the production of new instructors combined with the accepted industry norm that a new instructor will, on average, last about two years (then they discover that working at a fast food joint is a better deal and gives them medical insurance to boot) that keeps pay at a minimum.

Yes, some independent instructors loose money (at least on paper ... but after taxes?). Their expenses are quite high and include maintaining an inventory of student equipment that they do not get special teaching package deals on like the shops do. They are squeezed from below by the shop prices and have to bring their prices, at least somewhat, in line with the shops. When they do, the shops respond by lowering their prices even more, and whine even more. It should be remembered, however, that somewhere there is a shop that is kissing the ground that the independent walks on, 'cause their selling a set of gear to someone that they didn't have to train.

Anyway, if we were to pay what the OW course should cost without this uneven playing field, it would be more like the more advanced classes that can cost $1,000 or more. The reason being is that even P/T instructors can't afford to do a Trimix class for less than cost, and there are fewer instructors that can teach at this level, so the prices are not kept artificially low.

You are right, there are no cheap trimix classes because the material are so expensive that the instructors fees don't look that bad. Additionally people who are committed to trimix diving have to have plenty of money and there is no one (yet, but watch ... it'll happen) is cranking out tea-bagged 100 dive wonders as trimix instructors. But then how many actual full time trimix instructors do you know? Most all that I know are part timers.

So, it should cost $1,000, but it doesn't. Since it isn't a death-defying activing, most any instructor can get you into, and hopefull back out of, the water safely. So find a moderately priced class with an instructor that appeals to you. More than likely you'll survive the experience.

Yes, just about any pimply faced schlep of an instructor can likely get you back on the beach or boat alive, but can they get you there raring to go for your next dive? Can they get you to the point that at the end of the class you feel perfectly comfortable to actually go diving on your own? That's the real question. The question that the industry can't seem to either comprehend or solve.

 

[mdb]

That's the real question. The question that the industry can't seem to either comprehend or solve.

Well, the industry did when LA County and NASDS and NAUI and the YMCA took the time to train good divers who, in turn, helped others become competent divers.

I was very fortunate to train with Lou Fead, and Ron Merker, and Bill Costello, and Barry Friedman, and spend some time in a pub or two with John Gaffney and John Cronin

 

[Thalassamania]

Well, the industry did when LA County and NASDS and NAUI and the YMCA took the time to train good divers who, in turn, helped others become competent divers.

I was very fortunate to train with Lou Fead, and Ron Merker, and Bill Costello, and Barry Friedman, and spend some time in a pub or two with John Gaffney and John Cronin

It was nice when the competition was on a friendly basis and revolved about the demonstrable quality of your students. I also enjoyed working with Lou and (if I may be permited to free associate for a moment) Jon Hardy, Harry Averill,Ted Boehler, Mark Flahan, Glen Egstrom, Jim Correy, Ronnie Damico, Jim Stewart (see my avatar, that's Jim on the right), Larry Cushman, Ken Heist, Art Ullrich, Bob Fronk, Lee Kvalnes, John Reseck, Dave Nagle, Homer Fletcher, Sylvia Earle and most of all, the best physics teacher there's ever been: John Wozny.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Went to your site, very nice by the way, looks like you might specialize in cave diving.. Pretty cool. Anyways you do state above that you charge $295 but you they also need to purchase materials in addition to it.

Just like I stated in my post.

Does that include trips to Vortex Springs with no extra cost? Awesome since admission is like $30-$40 per person in itself.

No, if you continue reading it states entry fees not included. Scroll to the bottom of the page and you'll see that "Entry fees cost varies. I also list that certification will cost about $500-600 depending on the options and gear chosen. BTW, Vortex only charges $19/diver now - new ownership and management.

Anyways you didn't answer the question of how long your students are in the Pool or Pond (is that still confined?).

Confined Open Water is defined as water that is similar to pool like conditions. The Mill Pond actually had conditions better than many pools I've been in. LOL

Your site says 5 confined water dives but how long are each of those dives.

That's dependent on the student(s). We go at their pace. The shortest amount of time we've spent in confined water so far has been about 10 hours with 2 students.

It also says "By the time you complete the course with us, you will have spent about 2-3 hours underwater". Does this mean just actual open water time or does it include pool/pond time?

That's 2-3 hours in actual open water time. Thanks for pointing out that statement being vague. I've just changed it to clarify the intent.

And about the 5 hours of pool time being unsafe, do you ever have people who you as an instructor know are ready in a shorter amont of time? As I had stated before, some will need longer than others and on the MBT site it says "You progress to each next step when YOU and your instructor feel you are ready. Our enjoyable “no pressure” program allows you to receive as much extra work as necessary to make you a comfortable and competent diver!" As I am sure you do with yours (site and students), the site shows a basic minimum requirement. If the person is not ready or "comfortable" you do not send them to the next level. Do we know how they actually break down that time at the pool or how much time is actually spent in the pool with out speculation? For all we know they show the hours as actual time in the pool. Please do not assume. I was with them for one pool session doing some training on comunication masks with a dive buddy for my reenlistment and the class was in the water before 6 and was still in there when I left at 8:30. From personal experience being around them they would not push someone through the course and would make sure that they are comfortable before they advance them. Now I am going to head back to check out your site some more... Love to look at cool dive sites.

As for 5 hours, MBT schedules 5 hours for pool time. That means less time in the water than that because you have to account for gear set up and break down before and after each CW session. I don't think that's enough time for a 1:1 class. I'm willing to bet they don't do many of those at that price. Someone else posted here that he/she paid $179 for OW with 4 hours of pool time, 10 students and 2 instructors. That is not enough time to bring any single student to a reasonable comfort level with the 33 skills that need to be taught, let alone getting comfortable and truly learning neutral buoyancy. Now add 4 more students to that (assuming each instructor takes on 5 students). I would hope MBT doesn't push their students too fast, but their schedule indicates that they probably do. Again, they may be a great shop, but their OW program has a lot to be desired.

I'm glad you enjoyed the site. It's due for an overhaul, though. Check back in about a month or so for something a little different. You'll also see a few more cave diving videos on there. We're going to Mexico in a week and a half!

 

[Nick_W]

I'm guessing she got defensive because (according to your profile) you're not certified, yet you're telling her what she's doing wrong.

Wow, I just saw this. I'm guessing you can't read because according to my profile I'm an instructor.

And yes, its been there the whole time, I didn't just jump in there and correct it.

 

[evensplit]

.....As for 5 hours, MBT schedules 5 hours for pool time. That means less time in the water than that because you have to account for gear set up and break down before and after each CW session. I don't think that's enough time for a 1:1 class. I'm willing to bet they don't do many of those at that price. Someone else posted here that he/she paid $179 for OW with 4 hours of pool time, 10 students and 2 instructors. That is not enough time to bring any single student to a reasonable comfort level with the 33 skills that need to be taught, let alone getting comfortable and truly learning neutral buoyancy. Now add 4 more students to that (assuming each instructor takes on 5 students). I would hope MBT doesn't push their students too fast, but their schedule indicates that they probably do. Again, they may be a great shop, but their OW program has a lot to be desired.

The actual hours spent in the pool vary, but normally end up exceeding 5 hours in water time. MBT's program is flexible and self paced so that each student progresses on when he or she is ready. A large number of MBT's students are young military, usually fresh out of navy survival swimming schools, many are rescue swimmers. There's no need to do unneccesary training just for the sake of hours. For those students that need it, MBT allows plenty of additional training time, be it classroom, pool, or open water. Students are not pressed to make schedules, and they are welcome to take as much time as it takes to ensure they are comfortable. Training can be completed in as little as 6 days. Some finish that quickly. Some do not. Nobody is ever rushed.