How many students fail your course?

[Superlyte27]

My class is per student, for an allotted number of days. Cavern Class is usually 3 days, $500. If you can't master the skills prior to the end of the days allotted, you're welcome to pay for more days, but you FAILED to complete the class in the amount of time provided.

 

[MargaritaMike]

When I was a working DM I did a LOT of work with OW classes and then AOW classes. In probably 500 or so dives I remember 3 students who didn't fail, but should have in my opinion. They were bad enough that I wouldn't dive with them on a "free" dive if given a choice. The instructor and I were very good friends and I recommended he not certify them, but he did. It began to weaken our friendship, because I thought they were unsafe to themselves and others.

Cheers -

 

[Uber Dave]

When I was teaching I only had one student who I would not certify. He was an older gent and something just didn't seem right about him. To make a long story short he was in the early stages of Alzheimer's. I was working in Key largo at the time. Somehow I guess this individual was able to make all the arrangements by phone, class, hotel, flight maybe he had help I don't know but I new he had a problem when I saw him standing outside his hotel and he had no clue where he was. Very sad.

 

[Colliam7]

More than 40% people fail the driving test.
More than 30% people fail the high school.
Close to 10% fail the US immigration test.

Why is it that the same population takes scuba and achieves a near 100% pass rate?

Actually, I question whether the 'same population' takes scuba.

Almost everyone pursues driving 'certification' when they reach the minimum age, irrespective of whether they have good vision, good motor skills, good judgement. Driving is a NEED (in their minds), not an avocation. They may not want to DRIVE, per se, but they need to be mobile and having a driver's license is the most direct path to the mobility they seek.

Similarly, everyone is 'required' to go to school through a certain level, even when they have NO interest, much less aptitude. They may be required to attend, but they are not required to put any effort into their so-called education. And, most who fail do not fail because of aptitude, they fail because of motivation.

Failing the immigration test is not infrequently a matter of language skills, as I understand it.

In contrast, very few individuals decide to pursue scuba instruction. There is a considerable element of self-selection. If the same population that pursues driver credentialing were to pursue scuba training, I imagine that the failure rate would be quite high indeed.

So, comparison of failure rates doesn't offer insight into scuba instruction.

In addition to the substantial element of self-selection, as John points out scuba instruction is supposed to be based on mastery learning, and time is supposed to be a variable - the student continues until they master the skills. Students are motivated (in the vast majority of cases) to pursue scuba training.

Finally, just because someone passes scuba certification doesn't mean they are a great, or even very good, diver. (That may be an issue worth discussing, but it is separate from passing a certification process.) I can take violin lessons. I may well learn to 'play' the violin, and might be able to 'pass' a test, involving playing a particular piece of music. That doesn't mean I can play Carnegie hall, or even become part of an ensemble, or perform outside of my own living room. But, I can 'play' the violin.

Having said this, I share the concern about 'fast food' training.

 

[shurite7]

NAUI & PADI

Written exam
only one has failed - twice. He was lazy refusing to read the book. In class he was shown the video in which he fell asleep.

Confined water
Can't say that anyone failed per se. There have been some who couldn't swim. After taking swim lessons they came back and passed the swim test. When it comes to skills I tell the students failure isn't an option, rather they may need more time and practice. Only those who don't want to take the time (which is on the very low side) tend to quit.

Open water
There have been some who I would not certify. The main cause is they were not mentally prepared for cold water diving. Most agreed to go back to the pool to "master" their skills and practice. Others chose to go to the tropics where the water is warm, viz good, and less gear (weight, thick wetsuit, gloves, hood). Those people came back and told me they never want to dive cold water again, which I can understand.

It isn't about failing someone, rather it is taking more time to work through the issues that prevent them from succeeding.

 

[Colliam7]

It isn't about failing someone, rather it is taking more time to work through the issues that prevent them from succeeding.

Well stated.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Failed a PADI OW student this week. Couldn't get through CW1. Had another instructor have a go, then a CD who determined that it would require a great deal of 1:1 with no guarentee. Student had a number of issues which I'm not prepared to discuss

While not failing I've stopped 2 students on Wreck and required more experience or work (either by taking PPB or having 1:1) for which I would give my time freely - so not upselling, before allowing them to continue the course at another time

 

[shurite7]

Well stated.

Thanks. Sometimes it is a bit taxing in terms of giving up my time, let alone paying for the pool, in order to get someone through.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

How are we defining failure? If a student drops out of their own volition, is that failing? E.g., we had a lady in OW whose husband really wanted her to learn to dive. You guessed it, she didn't. It was her second attempt.

I spent almost all of one pool session working on her clearing and removing/replacing her mask, while the instructor worked with the rest of the class who had long since moved on. We might have done regulator recovery as well, but all in the shallow end. She was clearly NOT comfortable in the water. We made progress, but it was clear she didn't enjoy it and felt panicked. In short, you can't learn to dive because somebody else wants you to when you can't subdue your own instinct to get your head out of the water.

Is this a failure? It seems like folks would say no for "dropouts" like this.

I don't think the instructor (or really me, as DM working with her one-on-one) really failed her. I've certainly done dumb things and ignorant things as a DM, but this isn't one of them IMHO.

If we did fail her, it was by not pulling her husband aside and telling him to knock off trying to control his wife's life. But that's more marital counseling than scope of practice for DM's allows.....

 

[Superlyte27]

Whether she drops out, or we kick her out, she FAILED to complete the course. So yes, it is a failure.