How many students fail your course?

[boulderjohn]

More than 40% people fail the driving test.
More than 30% people fail the high school.
Close to 10% fail the US immigration test.

Why is it that the same population takes scuba and achieves a near 100% pass rate? Are we all naturally inclined for scuba diving more so than driving a car or doing arithmetic? Or is it because dive courses are designed to create customers for dive gear and that is why standards are written to ensure that everyone passes?

I'm sorry that you were not able to understand any of my previous posts. It must be my fault for failing to write more clearly. I will try again. Here are three points--it is all I have time for now. If you are having trouble understanding them, let me know, and I will try to explain it in other words.

1. Traditional education uses a system where they teach you for a specific length of time, test you, and then assign grades. Scuba instruction teaches you for as long as it takes to get you to meet the standards. Thus, in traditional educational programs, students who do not meet standards at the specified time will fail, whereas in scuba students who do not meet standards are given additional time until they do meet standards.

2. Students who fail traditional educational programs usually do so for reasons related to motivation. When I explained this originally, I estimated that this was the case with at least 75% of the failures. In both high school and college, this includes students who absolutely do not want to be there but are forced to attend through mandatory attendance laws, students who are heavily involved in drugs and alcohol, migrants who move from place to place as they follow crop picking schedules (I once had a student fail my class--and count on my records--who attended exactly one day, a day in which we gave a writing test on which he did not write a single word), mentally ill students, severely impaired students, etc. In contrast, scuba students are almost primarily academically capable adults who are motivated to do well in the course and who will do have none of those aforementioned problems.

3. Students who fail classes in high school and college frequently do not have the required prerequisite skills for the course because they did not learn what they should have learned in previous classes. A student entering a calculus class who did not learn the necessary math skills in a previous pre-calculus class will struggle. In OW instruction, pretty much the only prerequisite skill is that you need to be able to swim (not all that well) and be able to read at the 5th grade level. Yes, the OW course is easy enough for a 10-year old to pass it. Is it surprising that a class of students ranging from high school graduates to college professors might find the work relatively easy?

 

[JackD342]

I'm sorry that you were not able to understand any of my previous posts. It must be my fault for failing to write more clearly. I will try again. Here are three points--it is all I have time for now. If you are having trouble understanding them, let me know, and I will try to explain it in other words.

1. Traditional education uses a system where they teach you for a specific length of time, test you, and then assign grades. Scuba instruction teaches you for as long as it takes to get you to meet the standards. Thus, in traditional educational programs, students who do not meet standards at the specified time will fail, whereas in scuba students who do not meet standards are given additional time until they do meet standards.

2. Students who fail traditional educational programs usually do so for reasons related to motivation. When I explained this originally, I estimated that this was the case with at least 75% of the failures. In both high school and college, this includes students who absolutely do not want to be there but are forced to attend through mandatory attendance laws, students who are heavily involved in drugs and alcohol, migrants who move from place to place as they follow crop picking schedules (I once had a student fail my class--and count on my records--who attended exactly one day, a day in which we gave a writing test on which he did not write a single word), mentally ill students, severely impaired students, etc. In contrast, scuba students are almost primarily academically capable adults who are motivated to do well in the course and who will do have none of those aforementioned problems.

3. Students who fail classes in high school and college frequently do not have the required prerequisite skills for the course because they did not learn what they should have learned in previous classes. A students entering a calculus class who did not learn the necessary math skills in a previous pre-calculus class will struggle. In OW instruction, pretty much the only prerequisite skill is that you need to be able to swim (not all that well) and be able to read at the 5th grade level. Yes, the OW course is easy enough for a 10-year old to pass it. Is it surprising that a class of students ranging from high school graduates to college professors might find the work relatively easy?

What he said.

 

[TMHeimer]

boulderjohn, I agree with your points, though I do think the "fail" thing may be more semantics. If you take Driver's Ed and fail the road test you can keep at it until you pass (I guess, never took it myself). If you fail the OW written test or can't do 2/3 of the 24 pool skills and the instructor says it's best if you join a future course and start from scratch, I would call that a fail.
I've never failed any course, but I guess if you fail a college course you can take it again next semester and may pass. You still failed the first time. All this not important.

 

[BlueTrin]

boulderjohn, I agree with your points, though I do think the "fail" thing may be more semantics. If you take Driver's Ed and fail the road test you can keep at it until you pass (I guess, never took it myself). If you fail the OW written test or can't do 2/3 of the 24 pool skills and the instructor says it's best if you join a future course and start from scratch, I would call that a fail.
I've never failed any course, but I guess if you fail a college course you can take it again next semester and may pass. You still failed the first time. All this not important.

I think people think commonly of fail when you have to pay again for tuition. But you are right that this could be counted as a fail.

My experience is that some diving shops will let you try again if you fail for free. I have seen one person fail a AOW and he was given the opportunity to join the next AOW diving weekend for free.

I think many shops are too concerned with their reviews and ratings to ask someone to pay again. That is unless you do something like GUE Fundies where they have many levels of fail/pass: provisional rev/tech pass and tec/rec pass with the possibility of upgrade: I think this is a great idea by the way. Though maybe not for every class.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

I'm sorry that you were not able to understand any of my previous posts. It must be my fault for failing to write more clearly. I will try again. Here are three points--it is all I have time for now. If you are having trouble understanding them, let me know, and I will try to explain it in other words.

1. Traditional education uses a system where they teach you for a specific length of time, test you, and then assign grades. Scuba instruction teaches you for as long as it takes to get you to meet the standards. Thus, in traditional educational programs, students who do not meet standards at the specified time will fail, whereas in scuba students who do not meet standards are given additional time until they do meet standards.

2. Students who fail traditional educational programs usually do so for reasons related to motivation. When I explained this originally, I estimated that this was the case with at least 75% of the failures. In both high school and college, this includes students who absolutely do not want to be there but are forced to attend through mandatory attendance laws, students who are heavily involved in drugs and alcohol, migrants who move from place to place as they follow crop picking schedules (I once had a student fail my class--and count on my records--who attended exactly one day, a day in which we gave a writing test on which he did not write a single word), mentally ill students, severely impaired students, etc. In contrast, scuba students are almost primarily academically capable adults who are motivated to do well in the course and who will do have none of those aforementioned problems.

3. Students who fail classes in high school and college frequently do not have the required prerequisite skills for the course because they did not learn what they should have learned in previous classes. A student entering a calculus class who did not learn the necessary math skills in a previous pre-calculus class will struggle. In OW instruction, pretty much the only prerequisite skill is that you need to be able to swim (not all that well) and be able to read at the 5th grade level. Yes, the OW course is easy enough for a 10-year old to pass it. Is it surprising that a class of students ranging from high school graduates to college professors might find the work relatively easy?

Point taken. However the only "open ended" scuba course that I have taken is my UTD Essentials and arguably my TDI Intro to Tech. My Essentials instructor was upfront and told me that I will get a certain number of pool days after which there will be an evaluation. It is rare that people pass it in one go so I should not be discouraged if I do not get a pass. Instead I should take what I learnt and practice on my own until I am ready for a free evaluation. I was not charged for it but this is because the UTD shop is in my neighborhood so I dive with these guys frequently anyways. When I discussed taking Fundies with Bob Sherwood, he also said the exact same thing that getting a tech pass in the first attempt may not be possible so more work will be needed. The only difference was that he said he will charge a very nominal amount for an evaluation when I am ready. "This amount does not make me rich not does it make my students poor. All it does is ensure that the student feels ready enough that my time does not go to waste." To me, there was nothing unethical about this approach either since the evaluation fee was very reasonable.

It makes me wonder what scuba industry would be like if entire scuba training was structured this way. "We expect open water students to demonstrate mask removal while hovering, air share while hovering and the ability to hold unassisted stops. We know that this may not be possible in 3 pool sessions so you may have to do pool work for a couple of weeks."

While such an approach will be in line with ideals of modern education that you are propagating and will surely produce open water graduates with much higher skills than what we see today, it may not be the most marketable model. It may also take the fun away from diving because who would want to travel to the Bahamas and spend 2 weeks in a pool? Market needs of tourism industry over ride the educational model you are explaining and turn scuba education into a "crash course" that is written to get you down to the reef rather quickly.

One approach that I think was even better than my UTD class was actually my TDI Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures. It was a course that combined Intro to Tech, Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures into one solid chunk. My instructor told me that it is a skill based course but he has over budgeted pool and quarry so much that it is very unlikely that anyone will still lag behind but if that happens then more pool and quarry time can be requested as a discounted rate (I think?). My TDI course was spread over many months with multiple pool sessions followed by 5 or 6 simulated dives in the quarry. The problem was that such a course could only be marketed to local divers. No one would travel from a far for such a spread out duration.

 

[jadairiii]

A student’s perspective on “failing” a SCUBA class. My first SCUBA class was in 1975, over the years I took a lot of SCUBA classes as my interests changed and I wanted new challenges, from being an assistant instructor to full mix. By 2015 I had never “failed” a class, including GUE Fundies with a Tech pass.
That all changed in January of 2015 when I signed up for my GUE Cave 1 class. As many of you know, with GUE you have 3 options, pass, fail or provisional (so you either pass or you don’t, but provisional is still a life line to passing) My class consisted of 3, 2 were full cave certified from other agencies and were both instructors for other agencies, I was the only one actually taking cave for the first time. I would not say I went in over confident, and I knew it would be a very tough class, especially considering day one of the class included me diving a dry suit for the very first time and “winging” it. (much to the horror of my instructor) But I acclimated accordingly and by the end of day one I was doing “swimmingly” with that dry suit.
That said, Cave 1 kicked my ass, it was by far the most challenging course I had ever taken, physically and mentally, and it was clear to me I was still struggling by day 5 with a couple of skills. So it came to be that on that final day when the instructor sat us down to give us his verdict, one passed, one failed outright…..and, I got a provisional. But I knew it, and truthfully, had he passed me, I would have known I had not completely earned it. It was the best thing for him to do for me and even though the 5 hour drive home with my “crushed” ego was not fun, I chalked it up to a learning experience. Due to work and scheduling I could not make it back up to G’ville until May but that was fine. Every weekend (with my wife shaking her head) I would put on the dry suit, strapped on the 104’s, climbed into our back yard pool and worked skills for a couple of hours. Or, I would work those skills while fun diving in the ocean. Every dive was a practice dive during those 4 months.
Come May of that year, I got one of my dive buddies (Cave 2/Tech 2 diver) to come up to Gainesville with me as my “buddy” to see if I could change that provisional to a “pass”. We had planned an extra day for one more skill day and spent 4 hours in Blue Grotto working every skill. But, it paid off, next day I was in the water with the instructor, he put me through the paces (as tough or tougher than before) and by the end of the 2nd dive I got my pass. One of the biggest “take-away’s” from this class was that I now practice more, even when diving. I work my skills more.
So, in IMHO, not passing a student is not a bad thing, and can actually work to their benefit. I know I am a better diver for it!

 

[boulderjohn]

One approach that I think was even better than my UTD class was actually my TDI Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures. It was a course that combined Intro to Tech, Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures into one solid chunk. My instructor told me that it is a skill based course but he has over budgeted pool and quarry so much that it is very unlikely that anyone will still lag behind but if that happens then more pool and quarry time can be requested as a discounted rate (I think?). My TDI course was spread over many months with multiple pool sessions followed by 5 or 6 simulated dives in the quarry.

I taught that class until I stopped teaching TDI. That is pretty much how I handled it.

There is a big difference between tech and basic OW to AOW classes. With OW and AOW, you are talking about (usually) motivated adults taking a course that can be taken successfully by 5th graders. You can be pretty sure they are going to be successful in the allotted time, and you will only have to deal with a relative handful of problems. With tech diving (which is 90% of what I teach now), the skills are much more difficult and the requirements much more exact, and it is much more difficult to predict when a student will achieve the required mastery.

There is also a much greater onus on the instructor for making sure the student achieves that mastery. A poorly prepared tech diver is much more at risk than a poorly prepared OW diver. In another thread currently running, a diver described an OW diver who kept losing buoyancy control and heading to the surface. That sadly happens a lot, and instructors who allow that to happen should feel embarrassed. If a tech diver loses control on a deco stop and heads to the surface, there is a good chance that diver will die, and the instructor who allowed a students with poor buoyancy control to be certified for such a dive should feel a lot more than embarrassment.

 

[They call me Tater]

I've had a number that I didn't pass in the time allotted. If a student doesn't quit I don't either. Sometimes they quit, sometimes I will work with them on my own time. Sometimes they just try again with me or with another instructor in the same shop.
Almost anyone can pass with enough time and practice. Not everyone is willing to work through it though.

 

[Superlyte27]

I've had a number that I didn't pass in the time allotted. If a student doesn't quit I don't either. Sometimes they quit, sometimes I will work with them on my own time. Sometimes they just try again with me or with another instructor in the same shop.
Almost anyone can pass with enough time and practice. Not everyone is willing to work through it though.

I've been teaching technical diving for about 7 or 8 years now. In all of my time of teaching, I've only ever fired one student. He was unsafe, to the point of putting me at risk. I was certain he'd kill himself or his buddy. I fired him as a student and another instructor heard how bad he had it and certified him sight unseen.

Other than that guy, i'll stick it out as long as you're willing. Some of you know Otto. He took 7 months, diving every weekend with me, to pass his intro to cave class.

 

[DogDiver]

When I teach, usually private lessons only. I charge per person per day. If it takes 3 days or 9 days, I’ll work with them until they are comfortable doing all the tasks.

Oh $100 per day per diver.