Mike1967
Contributor
I'm pretty sure everyone in here is a Tech poller.
How many dives before you cease to be a beginner ? [Poll]
- Thread starter Roger Hobden
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Wrong question. Whete is this numbers thinking coming from anyway?
What in the world has the number of dives to do with anything other with how much one enjoys diving or how much money and time one spent on it and how long one has been doing it.
It would make sense to define demonstratable skillsets under certain conditions as the gatekeeper of diving prowess. Didn't kill yourself in so many dives all by itself does not make a reliable indicator all on it's own.
If I gave it a stab, I would say to not be a beginner anymore you havevto be:
- a thinking diver.
- be able to hold a depth anywhere in the part of the watercolumn you choose to dive under any confitions you choose to dive in ... with your depth gage / computer as the only reference (and I don't care within how many feet exactly... reasonably well, say +/- 3 feet.
- be able to safely execute, under control at safe speed, free ascents. (yeah, decents too I guess)
- be able to deploy a dsmb and be able to recognize when you really should and actually do it...
- be able to recognize at least obvious danger, an obviously deteriorating situation, an obviously deteriorating buddy, ... and do something appropriate about it, like actually aborting the dive if so indicated by i.e having lost redundancy.
- you should be comfortable with simple navigation.
- you should really change your own valve to 1st stage o'rings if need be, what's that business about asking for help with that about in the first place... yeah, you need to pump your own gas too (for the car) too.
- You don't need to always plan and execute your own dives, but you should certainly be able to ... and if you never do it, how would you know?
...
Then you not a beginner anymore and start to really learn and that should never stop. And you are still a much, muchlonger road away from being an expert than the road behind you.
I've seen people with hundreds of dives nowhere near there. And I have no doubt some, predisposed and or wilstfully working on it eith a plan, can do all that in 50 or even less dives. It's not the number. It's the drive and purpose (learn and enjoy, but work on learning ... vs. enjoy and consume)
...
... Now, that thought put out there (nothing new at all I'd think), with @northernone declaring himself a beginner... considering what all he seems to be doing and playing with and getting into and learning about the first hand way and experimenting with to learn more, to hone and refine, .... by that measure, I am barely scratching the embryonic stage. Maybe I haven't even been conceived yet... by that measure ... and can only hope to some day break through my egg hstch and become a beginner diver...I just hope I don't get my wife and kids into trouble on that journey .... and I will continue to try to get them to make the journey from a guided consumer diver I hot them there, maybe one of them is a small step further) to a truly informed and thinking diver... which, frankly, I notice, is quite an uphill battle with the whole recreational dive industry seemingly working hard to breed more consumers ... and less thinkers.....
...
Sorry, as flawed and misguided my own thinking is more often than I care to admit, I just like those that really try to think... and then try again... and again... with every new data point and experience point they gain in the process.
...
RO
(rant over)
What in the world has the number of dives to do with anything other with how much one enjoys diving or how much money and time one spent on it and how long one has been doing it.
It would make sense to define demonstratable skillsets under certain conditions as the gatekeeper of diving prowess. Didn't kill yourself in so many dives all by itself does not make a reliable indicator all on it's own.
If I gave it a stab, I would say to not be a beginner anymore you havevto be:
- a thinking diver.
- be able to hold a depth anywhere in the part of the watercolumn you choose to dive under any confitions you choose to dive in ... with your depth gage / computer as the only reference (and I don't care within how many feet exactly... reasonably well, say +/- 3 feet.
- be able to safely execute, under control at safe speed, free ascents. (yeah, decents too I guess)
- be able to deploy a dsmb and be able to recognize when you really should and actually do it...
- be able to recognize at least obvious danger, an obviously deteriorating situation, an obviously deteriorating buddy, ... and do something appropriate about it, like actually aborting the dive if so indicated by i.e having lost redundancy.
- you should be comfortable with simple navigation.
- you should really change your own valve to 1st stage o'rings if need be, what's that business about asking for help with that about in the first place... yeah, you need to pump your own gas too (for the car) too.
- You don't need to always plan and execute your own dives, but you should certainly be able to ... and if you never do it, how would you know?
...
Then you not a beginner anymore and start to really learn and that should never stop. And you are still a much, muchlonger road away from being an expert than the road behind you.
I've seen people with hundreds of dives nowhere near there. And I have no doubt some, predisposed and or wilstfully working on it eith a plan, can do all that in 50 or even less dives. It's not the number. It's the drive and purpose (learn and enjoy, but work on learning ... vs. enjoy and consume)
...
... Now, that thought put out there (nothing new at all I'd think), with @northernone declaring himself a beginner... considering what all he seems to be doing and playing with and getting into and learning about the first hand way and experimenting with to learn more, to hone and refine, .... by that measure, I am barely scratching the embryonic stage. Maybe I haven't even been conceived yet... by that measure ... and can only hope to some day break through my egg hstch and become a beginner diver...I just hope I don't get my wife and kids into trouble on that journey .... and I will continue to try to get them to make the journey from a guided consumer diver I hot them there, maybe one of them is a small step further) to a truly informed and thinking diver... which, frankly, I notice, is quite an uphill battle with the whole recreational dive industry seemingly working hard to breed more consumers ... and less thinkers.....
...
Sorry, as flawed and misguided my own thinking is more often than I care to admit, I just like those that really try to think... and then try again... and again... with every new data point and experience point they gain in the process.
...
RO
(rant over)
It all depends on the diver. Some divers may have hundreds of dives and still be a beginner. Some divers are prodigy and have mastered a set of skills which make them good divers after less than 100 dives. I think beginners are those divers who think they know it all but still dive like newly OW certified divers regardless of how many dives they have logged. It's really hard to put a specific number on it.
Cheers -
Cheers -
I'd say beginner is a relative term. The first tropical diving I did at age 19 was with a group that mostly hadn't done a dive beyond their certification dives. I'd logged 15 or 20 and thus was the most experienced.
Now I dive with folks that make me the beginner....
Also, as others note, regression happens. If I don't dive for awhile, I'm a beginner all over again....
Now I dive with folks that make me the beginner....
Also, as others note, regression happens. If I don't dive for awhile, I'm a beginner all over again....
It really depends on the individuals early training and their dedication. I’ve see. People with amazing learning curves.
Mike1967
Contributor
I think the water should be a lot deeper than 2m to qualify as a "column", but that's just my opinion. And everything is easier in the pool, no current, no swell, perfect vis, warm water....the list goes on.
And yes I'm aware that the pressure change happens lot faster over the last 10m than from say 40 to 30, but it's all but over at 2m. Can you remember as a kid ever having to equalise your ears to dive to the bottom of the pool?
Anyway, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Cheers.
clownfishsydney
Contributor
I think a diver can be considered "not a beginner" once they have got to about 50 dives. This does not mean they are any good, but they "should" have gained enough knowledge and experience if they learn from their dives to start to become a good diver. Of course, some divers are very good from the first dive, even though they might not be as knowledgeable. I have met quite a few who fit into this category over the past 30+ years of diving.
I have also met some divers who have done hundreds of dives and who are still novice divers.
However, experienced diver is something else. I commonly see this term used (by the press especially after an accident) to refer to a diver with as few as 30 or 40 dives. Rubbish! I would consider the minimum number of dives to reach this level to be 200 or so. For someone who has done course after course, then I would consider that 200 still does not make them experienced. \
There is a famous diver who died on his 333rd dive. Some people consider him a "guru" of diving for the depths he was reaching. Me, I consider him a novice dive. Why? Because as far as I can figure out, about 60% of these dives were training dives where he was under the instruction of someone else. Therefore, he only did about 100 dives or so as "real" dives. Zero to hero attempt but a big fail!
I have also met some divers who have done hundreds of dives and who are still novice divers.
However, experienced diver is something else. I commonly see this term used (by the press especially after an accident) to refer to a diver with as few as 30 or 40 dives. Rubbish! I would consider the minimum number of dives to reach this level to be 200 or so. For someone who has done course after course, then I would consider that 200 still does not make them experienced. \
There is a famous diver who died on his 333rd dive. Some people consider him a "guru" of diving for the depths he was reaching. Me, I consider him a novice dive. Why? Because as far as I can figure out, about 60% of these dives were training dives where he was under the instruction of someone else. Therefore, he only did about 100 dives or so as "real" dives. Zero to hero attempt but a big fail!
Meh, we're trying to apply some sort of metric to a situation that by its very nature doesn't really exist. In this case, I'm still a beginner. I'm just less of a beginner than some other people, and more of a beginner than some other people. The entire idea is so relative that it's barely worth the discussion.
The fact that you can go to any tropical dive destination and see people with 1000 dives and wonder what instructor thought it was a good idea to give them a c-card instead of a brochure for golf lessons just illustrates the point. And you can see a diver with 30 dives that has better control of themselves and their dive than most of the diving population also illustrates the point.
Which one is the beginner? Hint, the correct answer isn't "whichever one has more than 100 dives."
What we should be really talking about is the quality of their experience as a diver. Someone with 1000 dives may not be nearly as experienced as the diver with 30 dives. You would hope that were not the case, but it's visible all over the world on a regular basis.
The fact that you can go to any tropical dive destination and see people with 1000 dives and wonder what instructor thought it was a good idea to give them a c-card instead of a brochure for golf lessons just illustrates the point. And you can see a diver with 30 dives that has better control of themselves and their dive than most of the diving population also illustrates the point.
Which one is the beginner? Hint, the correct answer isn't "whichever one has more than 100 dives."
What we should be really talking about is the quality of their experience as a diver. Someone with 1000 dives may not be nearly as experienced as the diver with 30 dives. You would hope that were not the case, but it's visible all over the world on a regular basis.
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