How many dives before solo diving, part II

[DaleC]

I understand yours and Bobs POV and think it is a neccisary part of the checks and balances process.

 

[Fish-R-Man]

The problem with trying to really determine any individuals ability in any type of activity would be extremely difficult. Especially for diving. Even with an in-the-water assessment. There are just to many variables.

How would be the best way to determine an individuals ability to solo dive. I lived for a while at a ski resort and worked as an instructor. The method that they used to sort out individuals for the various classes was to have everyone ski down a short run for a group of instructors that sent them to either an A for beginners group to F for the very best. A lot of what Devon has been saying took place every time they did this. There were plenty of people that were very upset that they were selected for a class rating that they felt was way below their perceived skill level. Their frustration escalated if they were separated from friends that they had thought may have had inferior skills. Ego is a powerful driver.

You will see the same thought process with people driving cars. Most people believe they drive very well. Just ask them, they will tell you so. Now take a few of these great drivers from southern climates and have them drive in a few inches of wet snow and watch all hell break lose. So what happened to their skill. They are still good drivers in their local environment, you just changed the rules a bit.

The thing that you will never be able to test a person on is their ability to handle problems under stress. You may try to task load a person to see what their reactions are, but it will never be the same as what they will do if they are in a panic situation. Then all bets are off. I have been in a couple of situations at sea where there was a high degree of panic with some of the crew members. One was a fire and one was a near sinking. I was surprised by the reactions of some of the people that I thought I could depend on when things went south. A number of them were absolutely worthless in a serious situation. They did not have what it takes to calmly solve the problem at hand. These people if they were divers, I would have gladly had them as buddy’s, until I saw how they panicked when we needed their skills the most. At least if I am diving solo, I only have to worry about what I am going to do in any given situation.

I am by no means advocating solo diving for inexperienced individuals. I firmly believe that experience and training need to be at a high enough level for that individual to dive in relative safety. Unfortunately each individual will need to determine what that personal level is. I don’t believe that number of logged dives is the answer. I personally think that the solo course is a bad idea. I believe it will give under qualified divers an added sense of security. I really don’t see many instructors failing students out of this class. The first thing my instructor for my Cavern/ Intro to Cave class made clear is if I didn’t meet his standards, I would not pass. I thanked him for that. For me, I need to know my skills are where they should be before I move on to the next step. For some divers, I just don’t see how two additional open water dives will get them to where they need to be.

 

[sylpha]

I think that some people simply have too much ego to accept guidance.

i have some experience of this within the last 5 years. i was a member of an active dive club, we had someone join whose ego was only exceeded by the size of his mouth. from his basic training he worried the instructors & those of us who had chosen not to become instructors,but were nevertheless experienced divers.

let me give you an example, i overheard him telling someone who had done their first pool training dive that those sessions could be bypassed if you knew the right people (which he implied he did). I was close enough to turn around and ask just which of the instructors had bypassed his training & how he explained the hours which had been put into his remedial training to actually get him through.

those of us running dives were finding that other divers were requesting not to be buddied with him (including instructors who were getting fed up of getting the short straw). he palled up with a couple of others who had a similar know it all attitude.

this guy with all of 50 dives under his weight belt bought himself tekki diving equipment and without the benefit of training started telling the rest of us how wrong we were. he was unable to get trimix (no card) and deep inside himself he knew how bad he was so he didn't dive more than about 20m. it made life for the rest of us unpleasant so there was a mass exodus from the club & it folded.


the upside, a small number of us bought one of their boats & without the restrictions of club rules we are able to solo dive.

 

[SeaYoda]

First, I'm one who believes that the 100 dives is almost certainly too few dives for most people to be ready to solo dive. Second, as a relatively new instructor I can tell you that observed behavior in a controlled skill review session doesn't show how someone deals with difficulties on a real dive.

Ultimately, the minimum dive number is a heuristic, but that is the best we can do unless you are suggesting limiting solo diving classes to those who have made multiple real dives with an instructor and at least one where a problem was encountered so that the instructor can evaluate how the person responds to stress.

Overconfidence drives foolish behavior that is justified by the perpetrator by ego and ignorance. I realize that no matter how many of us point that out, there is going to be a (large) percentage who don't believe us. But with maturity and experience comes wisdom, and after a few hundred more dives, and a couple of problem moments, minds change.

Folks posting here are not anti-solo diving. But advocating for responsible choices, particularly for inexperienced divers, is simply common sense.

I've met more than a few people with 20, 30, 50 or more dives whose experience led them to believe they could handle anything because they hadn't yet needed to deal with any issue of significance. I was one of them.

My situation was not the same as those that were not tested before going solo early. My first dive after my checkout dives had an issue as I reached the anchor at the beginning of the dive. Buddy's tank was out of it's strap at 85', head pulled back and unable to do anything but lay on the bottom and stir silt. Problem was handled by me alone. Dive number two had puking buddy on the anchor line on the way down, third buddy of trio ran low on air and had to surface away from the boat (they lost the anchor underwater and had to search for the boat above water, I knew where it was without surfacing) causing one to wear himself out on the surface swim while I swam back below them. Reaching the boat, I had to help the guy out of his fins and onto the boat. Fourth dive from certification, third buddy ran out of air on the way up the anchor line - grabbed my integrated octo and I had to hang on to him because he followed none of the training I had about OOA situations. Now for my stupid mistake - It happened on about my 7th or 8th dive. Clear warm water that I had dived with buddies and had snorkeled solo for years. I had read some on solo but had made no changes to gear. I had limited myself to 20' after reading what depth to limit myself(this was 10' less than allowed by the book I read). I saw two divers swim by and that was all it took to become stupid. I decided I could be their shadow buddy. I stayed within sight but never let them know I was their buddy. I went beyond my depth limitations, knowledge, and experience. When I got home I gave myself a severe mental lashing. I realized I had not only broken my own rules but could have easily died. I put my foot down and said I would never endanger myself or others like that again. I looked more into the subject because I knew I was capable of doing the dive, just ignorant. The SDI course was out there but I had far too few dives to be allowed to take it. I researched everything I could get my hands on before soloing again. I was well aware of the dangers and what other's had done to mitigate them. I kept my promise to not go deeper than 30' until I had tried several solutions and gear configurations. I still limit my solo to places I know well with good conditions. I'm not a novice nut with a death wish. As I said before, no one is exactly like me so I do not advocate that anyone follow my footsteps. I also know that I would have been ready for a solo course earlier than dive 100. I've passed that 100 mark and I've told the only thing I regret (not all the problems I've encountered). Either I'm stupid, fooling myself, or right when I make the assessment that I knew enough when I went solo. Do I still not know enough to make a good evaluation? How many real life emergencies and of what types will make me truly realize I was on a suicide mission when I began to solo? (This might sound as if I'm angry - I am not, just a rhetorical question)

As stated in your second point above, evaluation in a class, not even a solo class, can tell you what will happen on a real dive. You can observe comfort level and, as has been stated by other instructors, performance under task load. That is something that can be done at the beginning of class as well as the end. If instructors are to benefit students and not promote the "macho" diver mindset, they need not train and stress the student like a Navy Seal program. Rarely in the real world would an OOA, mask knock off, silt out, with lost buddy happen while bubbles were blowing in your face. I need to know real problems and real solutions in a non-boot camp method. Then put me through some reasonable situations that would test my ability. Critique me and then challenge me again on the same issue in a different setting. If the instructor can't see if I've got it or not, they are a poor instructor. If instructors are so worried about us students, I think it would be great for them to dive with us and be our mentors. Surely we can not learn everything they have to offer in a few classes and a few dives. No real world scenarios are likely to crop up (although they might). Are students ready to be solo at the end of a class or not? Reality is that classes and observation are all we have. I'm for them, just needed them earlier in my career than some believe possible.

 

[DevonDiver]

Although you are also experienced and knowledgeable (and presumably have concern for your fellow divers as well), you come across as an arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all. I’m sure you’ll respond to this ad-nauseum with some excessively long retort...but I’d be willing to bet it’s the general consensus amongst the members who have been reading these posts.

Nope....I'll accept your feedback. I don't claim to be a diplomat....and I would hate for an unclear message to advocate or encourage a diver towards an ill-considered and/or dangerous course of action.

As an instructor, I am more open to liability than you...and that means I choose to make my public perspective very black & white. I take responsibility for my views and guidance on here.

I certainly wouldn't want anyone to get hurt because they had acted on words that I had wrote here for the sake of being gung-ho or just to 'prove a point'.

That said, I do apologise if I appear arrogant.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

People may enjoy solo pursuits.... but generally they understand their relative level of competance in those activities. This is especially true when the activity has a risk factor.

Solo diving without experience is akin to free-climbing without having first ever practiced on ropes.....

Funnily enough, those things don't happen in climbing...

It's not the same for scuba, where the risk can be more hidden.

That's an interesting take on free climbers; I thought most of us graduated straight from bouldering without EVER using a rope. I grew up 220 miles from a rope mecca (Eldorado Canyon), but my circle was seriously risking L&L without rope on the sandstone walls of the Purgatory. When I got to real climbing rock that didn't crumble, like around Boulder, I felt like spiderman and wouldn't even consider ropes.

When there is +100' of water over your head I do not think of the risk as hidden. Lack of incident breeds complacency. Limited experience usually limits incidents. Complacency not punished results in over confidence.

For some of us +130' without redundancy might not be over confidence. My advise is that no one should make solo dives like I do; I'm a little crazy.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The problem that we see as instructors (and I am happy to assume that any other instructor would cite simular experiences) is that less experienced divers are often very poorly skilled at correctly self-appraising their true diving capabilities.

That isn't just a new diver issue ... it's quite common among divers at all levels. I've experienced it myself whenever I've taken a class that really challenges me ... I've come out of the water on more than one occasion completely disheartened with what I discovered my real abilities were, compared to what I thought them to be. We all want to think of ourselves as competent, after all ... which is why a good class can often prove to be something of a reality check. It's one reason I continue to take them.

But I think with solo diving it often boils down to the personality type that finds solo attractive ... the free spirit who doesn't want to be told what to do. My friend John put it rather humorously not too long ago on another forum where we were having a similar discussion around gas management. His feedback went something like this ...

Hee Hee Hee

Both sides of the issue completely missed the other's point - it all boiled down to this:

Point one - you should use these methods to determine how you dive, how deep you can go, and for how long.

Point two - Don't frickin' lecture me!

Point one, part two - but, you should use these methods to determine how you dive, how deep you can go, and for how long!

Point two, part two - I told you, don't frickin' LECTURE me!

Point one, part three - you're not understanding what I'm saying - you should use these methods to determine how you dive, how deep you can go, and for how long!

Point two, part three - Dammit! DON'T you lecture me, *******!!!

Point one, part four - it's clear that you're not understanding what I'm saying - let me paraphrase this another way - you REALLY should use these methods when planning how you dive, how deep you can go, and for how long!

Point two, part four - AAAIIIIEEEEEE!!!!! I shall kiil you, you blue-gloved wearing, Kool-Aid drinking sonuvabitch, if you don't quit lecturing me!!!!

and so on, and so on, and so on.....

I got the distinct feeling that you and others thought that if only you worded things differently they might understand....It's so clear, really....but they never did. I guess that the bottom line is this - if they don't want to be lectured, don't lecture them....even if they are wrong.

Life can sure be frickin' interesting, eh?

- John

It boils down to this ... no matter how "valid" one's advice may be, it really doesn't matter unless the person you're offering it to wants to hear it.

It's easy for instructors to get into "lecture" mode ... it's what we're used to doing. This forum isn't the place for it ... no matter how strongly we feel that someone's heading down a path that may lead them to a bad situation.

Should've probably followed my initial instinct on this topic and just stayed out of it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

Amen to that. Will stay away and let the kids play to their hearts content from now on. lmao

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Yep... I'm outta here too. This isn't a discussion group anymore...

 

[drbill]

i simply prefer diving alone - it never came down to feeling ready enough to conquer the solo! i started solo-ing at about 20 dives, because frankly, as a 20 year old (who still looks like a child), i didn't like diving with borderline-pedophile old dudes with wire-rimmed glasses. simple as that.

You might have learned something diving with old dudes like myself (nearly 50 years of experience) although I don't wear wire-rimmed glasses and I do like young ladies... preferably in their 40s.