How many dives before solo diving, part II

I had less than 25 dives when I began soloing, and now I have:

  • 0-24

    Votes: 8 16.3%
  • 25-50

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • 50-99

    Votes: 6 12.2%
  • 100-249

    Votes: 6 12.2%
  • 250+

    Votes: 25 51.0%

  • Total voters
    49

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You know if you don't like the idea of solo diving, don't come into the fourm.
:idk:

What gives you the idea I don't like solo diving? I am a solo diver.

There's a difference between solo diving and jumping in the water by yourself without a bloody clue what you're doing.

I like the idea of the former, but I'm not crazy about the idea of the latter.

Someone fresh out of OW has no business solo diving ... their training didn't even BEGIN to prepare them for it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I had a friend get up one morning and find her husband dead, halfway between the living room and bedroom. We're all going to die, some of us will be diving at the time.

There is a common fallacy out there that people who die underwater "at least died doing something they enjoyed doing".

I came close to testing that theory last year, when I had my little incident in a cave that caused me to seriously face the possibility that someone else would be hauling me out of that cave.

I'm here to tell you that I wasn't enjoying what I was doing at the time ... frankly it was the closest I've come to being terrified in a long, long time.

I've got a sneakin' suspicion that most folks who die while scuba diving don't go out thinking about what a great time they're having ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I'm trying to play nice, but 'others' (being nice again) are monopolizing the forum and trying to shove their points of view down everyone elses throat and then claiming superiority. It's very similar to non-DIR folks coming into the DIR forum and bashing what they do there. Genuine debate/discussion between solo divers, sure. But, that's not what this is anymore.

This discussion isn't about solo diving ... it's about diving within the level of your ability and training. It could just as easily apply to other kinds of diving where increased risks require additional levels of training and experience.

There's a reason why the solo forum is listed under Technical Diving Specialties ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
...I fish in the Bering Sea for a living. We lose boats up here every year. People that are unfamiliar with what we do usually think it has to be a catastrophic failure to lose one of these large vessels. It's not. It is always an accumulation of small problems that lead to the vessel becoming unstable. I think most diving fatalities are similar. It is an accumulation of small errors that cause the final outcome...

Off topic:

I've sailed in or near the same waters (back in the 1980's for me).

Nothing more haunting than hearing a very faint Mayday call from a fishing vessel in the Gulf of Alaska in the middle of a rough black night, and being unable to do anything but relay the call.

Stay safe out there.

On topic: You are right, I believe. I think it is more common for a bunch of little things going wrong that leads to a diving accident rather than one BIG thing (but the BIG thing still is possible).

Best wishes.
 
Devon and Bob make very valid points about the need to have a considerable amount of training and experience before attempting to dive solo. They come from the instructional side of diving. They see a large number of divers with a wide variety of skill levels. On the other hand I am sure that there are a significant number of divers that are very comfortable with their skill level

The problem that we see as instructors (and I am happy to assume that any other instructor would cite simular experiences) is that less experienced divers are often very poorly skilled at correctly self-appraising their true diving capabilities.

It is not uncommon for a new diver to find themselves naturally relaxed and at ease when using scuba. This environmental comfort will play a large role in determining their confidence level in scuba diving. When only based on this rationale, the confidence level does not match the capability level. The diver's perception that they can deal with any potential risks or dangers is entirely hypothetical.

Sadly, any self-appraisal by an inexperienced diver cannot be made using evaluation of the full range of risks and requirements. As per the cliche "you don't know what you don't know", the inexperienced diver mistakenly bases the self-assessment of competance on their comfort level, rather than on a comprehensive assessment of capability versus risk.

In contrast, confidence that develops through increased experience tends to be more accurate. Exposure to different elements, problems and issues educates the diver about both the risks involved and their own capability for reacting to and dealing with those risks. In this instance, the initially (over) confident diver will actually become less confident and more cautious as their experience and capacity develops. What confidence they do possess, will be entirely rooted in a substantiated understanding of their capabilities.

What we see often as instructors are highly confident, but highly inexperienced divers. When we dive with those people, we see that their confidence is undeserved.

As a result, we try our best to help these divers appreciate why their confidence is misplaced. We educate about risks. We recommend having a conservative approach to scuba, along with adherance to safe diving practices and the progressive expansion of diving activities, in line with developing experience.

We do an extremely good job of this in our dive centers. It is easy to 'prove a point' about diver capability when you can take them in the water and show them. On the internet, we don't have that ability. C'est la vie...

I'm trying to play nice, but 'others' (being nice again) are monopolizing the forum and trying to shove their points of view down everyone elses throat and then claiming superiority. It's very similar to non-DIR folks coming into the DIR forum and bashing what they do there. Genuine debate/discussion between solo divers, sure. But, that's not what this is anymore.

I am trying to understand where this misappreciation has come from that has led several members in this debate to believe that there is an 'anti-solo faction' posting here. There isn't.

Everyone posting here is making a case FOR solo diving.

The only apparent disagreement is whether a solo diver should possess a requisite amount of training and experience before embarking on this specialised diving activity.

One side of the argument feels that there is no need to expect a minimum level of experience, education or ability before going solo diving. It is fine to go solo, from your first dive onwards. It is the individual's choice. People supporting these views typically started solo diving within their first 25 dives and currently have less than 250 dives. None are employed within the dive industry or work in dive education.

The other side of the arguement feel that solo diving is a specialised and advanced diving activity. The risks involved in that activity warrant specialised equipment and procedures. In addition, a responsible diving attitude and ability to cope with stress/panic is required. Because of these factors, divers should have a considerable amount of experience and/or training before embarking on solo diving activities. People supporting these views currently have more than 500-1000 dives. Some are employed by the dive industry and/or work in dive education. This view is also supported by every scuba agency, DAN and the scuba community in general.

The discussion is clouded somewhat by a confusion over what counts as a solo dive. There is also a misunderstanding that the proponents for reserving solo diving for divers with a minimum capacity and experience are actually anti-solo diving.
 
I think that some people simply have too much ego to accept guidance.

I think that some people simply have too much ego to quit giving it.
 
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One side of the argument feels that there is no need to expect a minimum level of experience, education or ability before going solo diving. It is fine to go solo, from your first dive onwards. It is the individual's choice. People supporting these views typically started solo diving within their first 25 dives and currently have less than 250 dives. None are employed within the dive industry or work in dive education.

The other side of the arguement feel that solo diving is a specialised and advanced diving activity. The risks involved in that activity warrant specialised equipment and procedures. In addition, a responsible diving attitude and ability to cope with stress/panic is required. Because of these factors, divers should have a considerable amount of experience and/or training before embarking on solo diving activities. People supporting these views currently have more than 500-1000 dives. Some are employed by the dive industry and/or work in dive education. This view is also supported by every scuba agency, DAN and the scuba community in general.

I'm digging a lot of what you're saying on the subject but that assessment in pretty biased and doesn't help your case.

What I have perceived is that there is a group of divers on the board who started to solo early in their (diving) career and who choose not to believe in arbitrary minimums that don't actually indicate any of the real skills neccisary for solo diving. That doesn't mean they devalue experience, education or ability. Instead, they often talk about what they have found through their real life experiences to be the skillsets useful to solo diving.

It also appears those divers actually go to great lengths to state that they don't advocate the terms of soloing for anyone else; For or Against. They probably experience diving to be a very personal pursuit and therefore feel uncomfortable placing themselves in the role of judging others. This mindset also probably reflects why they are usually not instructors or involved in dive education. I personally turned one pastime (fish/reef keeping) into a business and have no intention of doing the same with diving. That doesn't mean however that we are uneducated as to the subject of diving or that our experiences should be marginalized. My "little" dive library contains books from The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving to GUE Tech1 / Cave1 manuals.

I would lastly say that some of those who started soloing early have an independant, pioneering spirit and naturally tend towards taking personal responsibility for their own education/experiences in all aspects of their lives. They appear to have engaged in solo pursuits other than diving, build or repair their own equipment, have professions where they act independantly etc etc... It would appear for those individuals that solo diving is not a rash decision but rather an extension of their basic mental/emotional/psychic makeup. I also am not so naive to think that everybody who solos early falls into the above catagory.

And a number of those in this camp do have more than 250 dives, for whatever that is worth. I know some instructors who log 100's (1000's?) of dives a year; all to about 30' for fin pivots while I personally only log about 1-4 dives a week. But half of those hit 100' about half are solo, and half of those solos are exploratory.

I won't even address the other side of the equation but I could write a book about the falicies expressed therein.


I think there are many subsets of solo divers and there's no need (or truth) for pigeon holing groups.
 
I think that some people simply have too much ego to quit giving it.

Doug, normally you'd have to pay to get advice from a scuba instructor. Here on the board, you have access to that for free. That happens because some dive pros are willing to spend their valuable time on this forum for the benefit of others.

You may not appreciate that, but many others do. If you don't appreciate that more experienced divers have something to offer you, then please just ignore us... but there's no need for the petty digs and complaints.

I don't charge you for my advice, so I don't know what you're complaining about...

I'm digging a lot of what you're saying on the subject but that assessment in pretty biased and doesn't help your case.

You're right...it was too black and white. That was unfair to those posters who take a reasonable position, such as you. I was specifically commentating on some of the "I can do what I want" brigage, such as Master00Sniper.
 
Doug, normally you'd have to pay to get advice from a scuba instructor. Here on the board, you have access to that for free. That happens because some dive pros are willing to spend their valuable time on this forum for the benefit of others.

You may not appreciate that, but many others do. If you don't appreciate that more experienced divers have something to offer you, then please just ignore us... but there's no need for the petty digs and complaints.

I don't charge you for my advice, so I don't know what you're complaining about...

You and NWgratefuldiver basically make the same points, but there’s a reason why almost all of his posts are “thanked” and virtually none of yours are. NWgratefuldiver comes across as a highly knowledgeable diver, who is a good person and has genuine concern for his fellow divers. Although you are also experienced and knowledgeable (and presumably have concern for your fellow divers as well), you come across as an arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all. I’m sure you’ll respond to this ad-nauseum with some excessively long retort...but I’d be willing to bet it’s the general consensus amongst the members who have been reading these posts.
 
It also appears those divers actually go to great lengths to state that they don't advocate the terms of soloing for anyone else; For or Against. They probably experience diving to be a very personal pursuit and therefore feel uncomfortable placing themselves in the role of judging others. This mindset also probably reflects why they are usually not instructors or involved in dive education.

I am not aware of anyone like that involved in this debate. I am a big fan of solo diving.

I would lastly say that some of those who started soloing early have an independant, pioneering spirit and naturally tend towards taking personal responsibility for their own education/experiences in all aspects of their lives. They appear to have engaged in solo pursuits other than diving, build or repair their own equipment, have professions where they act independantly etc etc... It would appear for those individuals that solo diving is not a rash decision but rather an extension of their basic mental/emotional/psychic makeup.

There are plenty of buddy divers who have an independant, pioneering spirit.

People may enjoy solo pursuits.... but generally they understand their relative level of competance in those activities. This is especially true when the activity has a risk factor.

Solo diving without experience is akin to free-climbing without having first ever practiced on ropes..... or base jumping without ever done a regular freefall jump first.

Funnily enough, those things don't happen in climbing or parachuting. Logic dicates that the risk is understood. It's not the same for scuba, where the risk can be more hidden.

I know some instructors who log 100's (1000's?) of dives a year; all to about 30' for fin pivots while I personally only log about 1-4 dives a week. But half of those hit 100' about half are solo, and half of those solos are exploratory.

Agreed... which is why ascertaining dive competance through the number of logged dives alone will never be foolproof. There is no replacement for an in-water diver assessment.

However, for training courses, that is not usually practical as a pre-requisite for training - as it would entail sending potential students home if they failed to succeed in the given assessement. Assuming that a formal assessment is not possible, then I can't think of a better 'yardstick' than logged dives.

I think there are many subsets of solo divers and there's no need (or truth) for pigeon holing groups.

Agreed. It wasn't my intention to 'pidgeon hole' all solo divers into two catagories. Rather, I was just attempting to explain a broad-brush outline of this debate to a participant who seemed to be taking some offense through a vast mis-understanding. In your context, I certainly did over-simplify :wink:
 
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