How does one deal with an instructor that makes them uncomfortable?

[yle]

Personally, if they have already paid for the full course, I'd suggest they stick it out for the remaining 4 dives. The guy may be a total ass, but unless he is teaching them to do something unsafe, just finish and focus on developing skills and lots of diving afterwards.

The problem is the student's gut is already telling them something isn't right. The only reason to "stick it out" is because of the money they stand to lose by walking away. But if they feel something isn't right... is that a feeling you'd recommend they take with them to the ocean where they are relying on this instructor to make good decisions? As for safety... a new OW student might not have the perspective to understand what is safe and what isn't. Again, this is the responsibility of the instructor.

Pool sessions are mostly so that instructors can determine that their students are ready to go to the ocean. But they also serve for students to decide if they feel comfortable allowing their instructors to take them to the ocean. The situation described sounds like the student could be in a potentially harmful situation by going with this instructor to the ocean. Is it worth taking that risk? For... a couple hundred bucks?

 

[TMHeimer]

Boulderjohn's college years can to relate-- "Teachers" ceritification after 4(+) vs. requirements for Dive Instructor.
But yes, many teachers SUCK, as do dive Instructors.
To continue, is there a loss of Money? If not, go somewhere else...?

 

[Seaweed Doc]

A friend of mine is doing their PADI OW training right now and isn't having a great time. We've discussed what's going on and I'm pretty shocked and disappointed. I remember my OW instructors being so good that we opted to do the open water dives in frigid water with our instructors, rather than finish in warm clear water on vacation. I was hoping my friend would have the same experience but that doesn't seem to be the case.

My friend is a school teacher so they have experience with teaching and communicating lessons, which is an important point when it comes to the discussion.

The non specific issues at hand:

• condescending attitude
• failure to explain skills to be performed before diving (confined water dives), multiple times
• talking bad about other divers known to us that don't agree with the instructors thinking
• provably false information about gear (minor but really weird)
• talking bad about previous students
• failure to keep agreed upon schedule

There may be some others I'm forgetting but he general problem is that my friend is not comfortable and is having a bad time. So how does my friend get out of this with credit for work completed, so they can finish elsewhere? This is a PADI course.

[throwaway account for obvious reasons]

Your friend should document everything in writing at the time it happened, or now for past events. Be specific. Take this to the owner and ask to be in a different instructor's class or ask for their records. Some "things" are subjective enough (e.g., condescending attitude) that simply saying they showed that "thing" isn't really helpful to whomever you complain to. Specifics help illustrate the condition.

If the instructor is PADI and talking bad about another PADI instructor there might be grounds for a complaint directly to PADI. Don't know about other agencies.

I'll be honest: I went into your post thinking "Oh no, a teacher complaining about a class." I teach. I teach teachers on occasion. We collectively make the worst students. We're used to being the royalty in the classroom, and it's tough being a peasant again. (Though we play nice with students, the power relationship still exists no matter how much the student thinks about us as a buddy not a boss.) "Condescending attitude" would fit the pattern of a teacher complaining about a class. However, the other items are objective and clearly inappropriate. You convinced me!

 

[JackD342]

Yes, every section of the PADI OW course is separate, in terms of getting "credit". Five classroom sessions, five pool sessions, four OW dives. And there's a couple other little things that also get checked off separately.

Agreed. Anything that is signed off on the Student Record folder is transferable via referral. The one minor issue is if a module (group of skills) is only partially completed for some reason, you can't document and transfer partial module credit for individual skills.

 

[TMHeimer]

Your friend should document everything in writing at the time it happened, or now for past events. Be specific. Take this to the owner and ask to be in a different instructor's class or ask for their records. Some "things" are subjective enough (e.g., condescending attitude) that simply saying they showed that "thing" isn't really helpful to whomever you complain to. Specifics help illustrate the condition.

If the instructor is PADI and talking bad about another PADI instructor there might be grounds for a complaint directly to PADI. Don't know about other agencies.

I'll be honest: I went into your post thinking "Oh no, a teacher complaining about a class." I teach. I teach teachers on occasion. We collectively make the worst students. We're used to being the royalty in the classroom, and it's tough being a peasant again. (Though we play nice with students, the power relationship still exists no matter how much the student thinks about us as a buddy not a boss.) "Condescending attitude" would fit the pattern of a teacher complaining about a class. However, the other items are objective and clearly inappropriate. You convinced me!

Disagree that "we" make the worst students regarding being "Royalty" and being a "peasant" again. I don't THINK I fit that bill at all as a Band Teacher--speak for yourself (as I watch my decades of band concerts tapes and recall those faces).
I wonder if you are talking about teaching scuba courses as opposed to being a school classroom
teacher. I really don't know, but figure there is a big difference.

 

[throwaway999]

Apologies for not replying quickly to people. I've been busy all day and I'm just now able to get back to this. I appreciate all the replies.

Why is your account "Throwaway" seems like you have valid concerns I don't see the "obvious reason". am I missing something?

Because using my regular account would give my name and location, which would make it pretty easy to figure out who I'm discussing. If my friend decides to stick with this current instructor, so the nine hours of their life wasn't wasted, I don't want to cause them any additional headaches.

YES! Your friend can finish elsewhere...AND SHOULD! Without commenting on the instructor or facility, if a student diver is not comfortable, that student diver should make immediate changes, just like a certified diver who is uncomfortable on a dive. Sometimes even very good instructors just don't have a teaching style or personality that meshed with certain students, and that's ok. Its not ok to continue with those types of issues.
PADI has a referral process that is widely used.

From the 2018 PADI Instructor Manual
"Referral is the process of providing training documentation to another PADI Instructor when a student diver is part-way
through a course and wants to finish the course at another location."

Your friend should be able to get credit for all academics and confined water (pool) dives they did.

I hope this helps

It does. This is part of what I'm looking for. For reasons I'm not willing to get into, if my friend decides to continue elsewhere, we'd like to avoid any obvious confrontation. I was certified a long time ago and have no idea what I was given, at what stage, that proved what I had completed. Are students supposed to have a record of completion after each phase (class, confined, open) or does that only happen if you specifically request a referral?

Nobody wants to learn under a figjam.

TIL: FIGJAM.

Smells almost like Dunning-Kruger to me but I love this. I'm definitely going to add it to my library. 100% correct.

If you are going to be a scaredy-cat and tip toe around the issue and not have the will to face them and demand refund and an apology, no one is going to do it for you.

It's not about an apology or refund. The money isn't a big deal. Just trying to find out if my friend can avoid the hassle of confrontation and not have wasted all the hours. I'm not saying the instructor is bad. It's not my instructor, I'm not there, I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who have a great time with them. My friend definitely isn't one of those people and as someone who loves diving, it sucks that their first experience is not going well.

Personally, if they have already paid for the full course, I'd suggest they stick it out for the remaining 4 dives. The guy may be a total ass, but unless he is teaching them to do something unsafe, just finish and focus on developing skills and lots of diving afterwards.

That's definitely one of the options. Nothing I've heard is unsafe but the level of instruction seems to be lacking and as diving comes with risk, you really want it to be good. If my friend was comfortable with the instructor, these things could likely be corrected with a quick chat but that hasn't been the case.

Agreed. Anything that is signed off on the Student Record folder is transferable via referral. The one minor issue is if a module (group of skills) is only partially completed for some reason, you can't document and transfer partial module credit for individual skills.

Who should be holding the Student Record?

=========

Again, thanks to everyone who has replied. I'm looking forward to having another dive buddy and while I can help later, if they don't walk away from this feeling safe and secure in the water, it may be dead before it gets a chance to start.

 

[BlueTrin]

I had a pretty bad experience with my first AOW attempt and I changed instructors even though the shop offered me to pass again with them for free.

My second AOW attempt was really enjoyable with one instructor for 1-2 students, I learned so much more and the rest of the dives with that shop were great.

So your options are:

• Endure it just to get the AOW card. I tried that at first but we had an incident during my first AOW, where the instructor left me and told me to wait with 50 bars at >25m, my buddy told me to ascend and I failed to hold my stop after a minute. We got shouted at for not waiting for him at the surface

• Or move to another shop

For reference the first shop with which I had my AOW attempt has very good reviews (the only negatives they have are with the instructor who I had issues with). So even if you go by reviews it is not a guarantee that the instructor you’ll get on that day is good. This is possibly even more true of big shops as they have many instructors.

I have had experiences only with 5 clubs/centres so far so a very tiny pool for me to generalise ...

 

[yle]

I had a pretty bad experience with my first AOW attempt...

• Endure it just to get the AOW card. I tried that at first but we had an incident during my first AOW, where the instructor left me and told me to wait with 50 bars at >25m, my buddy told me to ascend and I failed to hold my stop after a minute. We got shouted at for not waiting for him at the surface

Ummm. Wow. Assuming you are on an AL80... no one should be "waiting" at > 25m with 50 bar. Let alone an AOW student.

Looks like you made the right choice to part ways with that instructor.

 

[yle]

That's definitely one of the options. Nothing I've heard is unsafe but the level of instruction seems to be lacking and as diving comes with risk, you really want it to be good. If my friend was comfortable with the instructor, these things could likely be corrected with a quick chat but that hasn't been the case.

Who should be holding the Student Record?

The instructor keeps the Student Record as evidence of the training that was done. Every section is initialed and dated by the instructor. PADI prints the Student Record on the back of a folder, which also has the liability release (which the student signs) printed on the inside. The instructor or shop keeps the folder with the student's paperwork.

BUT... the instructor should be able to provide a photocopy of that Student Record. The Student Record is also printed in the Student Logbook (which your friend should have... it's part of the required material for the PADI OW course) near the front (around page 4?) The instructor could fill out the SR in the logbook instead of making a photocopy of the file.

In either case, it's up to the instructor to create the record and to provide a copy to the student. The student is entitled to a copy (which is why it's in the logbook... although a lot of instructors don't take the time to fill it out.) But the only reason they really need it is if they're planning to transfer. So asking for it might raise questions.

 

[yle]

It does. This is part of what I'm looking for. For reasons I'm not willing to get into, if my friend decides to continue elsewhere, we'd like to avoid any obvious confrontation. I was certified a long time ago and have no idea what I was given, at what stage, that proved what I had completed. Are students supposed to have a record of completion after each phase (class, confined, open) or does that only happen if you specifically request a referral?

I just noticed this question, after I posted the response immediately before this one. And I sort of answered (purely by chance) this question there... but to do so explicitly:

Simple answer: no. Most OW students to not automatically get a copy of their Student Record, simply because they don't really need it.

Most OW students get their card at the end... that's all they get and that's all they need. They are also required to complete their logbook for the four OW dives, and the logbook should be signed by their instructor for each dive (this is a requirement of the course.)

The details of their training, i.e. the Student Record, shows the dates they did every little bit of the class... and the instructor signs or initials next to each bit. The only practical reason the student would need the SR is if they partially completed the class and had to transfer. The SR includes the instructor's contact info, so a new instructor would be able to contact the previous instructor to verify the completed work.

Hope this helps!