How does a filter really work and what can it do for you?

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I agree this discussion is not getting anywhere but you can have your own opinion its just when you try and make it like only your opinion counts and its definitive. Kind of like telling people the silver has a plastic lens based on nothing, sure you don't want or would never buy the tray but you almost make out like it shouldn't even exist. Which is the odd thing, there are some things I would never buy but it doesn't bother me that others would or that its for sale its peoples choice. Its good your trying to help out but if your going to make such claims then best to have more then written words to back things up and not based all on theories but actual use and testing.

The story of the plastic comes out as the comparison chart on the gopro site says that the black has a glass lens (no mention on the other model in that chart) and then later on that the lens is 2x sharper. You would think the lens is different but not they are the same I realised reading the page specs later. So the truth is the black is not 2x sharper it can't be it has the same lens.
When it comes to the tray I think it is an original piece of equipment that has got a number of design limitation and some features that are not useful like sliding the handles, those make it cost more than others, so far not a problem but then you can't say that the design helps with lighting when it does not which is what annoys me. Spreading incorrect information to lead people to believe that a triangular tray is better for lighting than a bar which is not the case.

You don't think my videos are good enough apparently and this is mostly due to the setup being terribly engineered, that along with my inexperiance so it creates terrible results. Whatever issues you say are with the setup as far as I can tell aren't apparent in use and have never been an issue so how can you say they are without even using something. So I think your basing your opinion again on no actual facts otherwise you would say where those major design issues are showing in the videos I posted because if they don't they aren't there simple.


Instead I think your later videos are very good compared to the early ones, and I hope you take on board the suggestion of pointing the lights forward not converging that will improve things a good deal

All I ask is you do more then Google searches to come up with opinions and looking at photos and specs aren't the same as using something and trying it out. I don't know your background but someone claiming to have a strong background in physics making some of those claims you made are not what you'd expect from someone that knows what they are talking about.
How many products have you made and how well have they done? You seem to know everything about how all things must be made but I'd love to have an idea of your engineering background. Just to give your claims a bit of validity.
I don't do google searches only though they sometimes spare me the effort to draw diagrams, I have studies optics and trigonometry which is very useful to work out some relationships between beams angles and arms positions.
I am an engineer, can you point me to the specific statement that you disagree with in my blog post on filters?


Like your thread topic here your claiming to know more then everyone else on filters, and you want to set things straight. What are you basing your opinions on how can you be claiming some theory of yours shows why something is good or bad and better then what URPro know. URPro is in contact with the guys at SRP and surely no matter what your knowledge in terms of filters is, its lacking compared to the people that pretty much invented it many years ago. You do like to bash SRP but stand by URPro which is the ironic thing as they work together on these products.

Can you tell me what are exactly the opinions in my post as opposed to the facts? Maybe you can provide specific examples or even leave a comment
You are making assumptions on how the product is developed that you don't know anything about. I look at the URPRO products are they are on the market under their brand and I am just commenting on those so far.

So after all this blurb you still have not gone on the actual blog and told me what is wrong or incorrect about it you don't know what I am going to say about the SRP dome but you feel the need to complain about it

Maybe is time to get over it?
 


---------- Post added January 5th, 2013 at 06:47 PM ----------

By the way it does not look that bad?
[youtubehq]2qD7KuGkaag[/youtubehq]

Sorry to say that, but out of the 12 or so minutes, 90% look excessively red and I don't think it is my monitor, even when not filming directly towards the sun (i.e. cave shots and under ledges). The 10% that are decent is because they were shot at a very specific depth and light situation that are optimal for this filter, which your video proves to be very narrow - either too red or if you go a little deeper, to dark/noisy. That is the disadvantage of using such a dark red hue - the "dip" on the color absorption profile of the material is too "deep". Filters will NOT do miracles, pushing the color absorption curve down does more harm than good.

It seems there is an artifact on the plastic on the left side of the filter, see the barracuda shot - injection molding might not be the best way to handle plastic resin and ensure excellent optical quality and it seems that is the processed used in manufacturing this. These artifacts can be identified through basic quality control steps on the production line before they are shipped out (a concentrated LED beam or looking at it through a polarized filter, which shows all the stresses on plastic - if you have one, place the filter between a LCD screen and a polarizing filter and you will see all the colorful bands).

If you think your camera sensor and how it measures "color temperature" an accurate method for measuring things, well.. I'd rather trust on the calibrated equipment used following engineering standards on material testing labs that will give out numeric results rather than compare things over wide nomenclatures and subjective opinions.


And yes, they sell filters for the Hero stock dome lens, here is a link from their website. Do they even dive?
 
Toozler where did you get that absorption curve you are taking your reasoning behind and how was that produced? That curve does not correspond to a red colour even
Also how do you know that there is an issue with injection moulding ?? What if it is a bubble that happens quite a lot when diving?
Do you have the srp dome or the polarpro?
 
You have to keep in mind that this video was shot by someone with a go-pro attached to their head (as evident by both footage and camera movement) but that aside this video has been post-processed by same person who probably added red color to it. You are absolutely right... there was a lot of red in this video but its because of the following:

#1 This video shows shallow shore dives and deep dives. As a matter of fact I remember exactly where this was shot because I love gardens of palancar and santa rosa that much. But that aside you have a combination of red filter used on deep dives, red filter used on shallow dives and safety stop looking up. Filter worked exactly how it should. On shallow shore dives it was not necessary (hence footage=red) and during safety stops person was in mid water column looking directly at the sun (hence footage = double red)

#2 This video was obviously processed because on deeper shots you see a combination of normal colors with filter use and then bam... a bunch of red. That is where person was looking under the ledge (without dive lights or a flash light for that matter) trying to squeeze what little was visible.

#3 I duked it out with Marty on another thread so I really do not want to reopen old wounds or add flame to fire but guy has a point. $80 filter will perform like $80 filter. A $30 filter will perform like a $30 filter. And honestly... this 12 minutes is a very good representation of how good of a footage you can get with snap on polar pro filter. Granted presentation was a little overdone but filter did exactly what it was supposed to do. Perform poorly when looking up at the sun, perform poorly when in shallow water and perform good at depth. Those deep spots there... they are 80 ft deep. Swim throughs at palancar go from about 90ft (if you hug the floor) to 80 feet if you start entering swimthrough from mid way point.

#4 polar pro makes both snap on and insert in filters. Their filters are priced at $30 which brings me back to square 1.
This is what I have on my bonica camera
Bonica 46mm Orange Filter
$30 and has served me like a loyal servant since 2008. It has been through thick and thin for about 200 dives or so delivering results as seen on my youtube channel. (follow my signature down below).

So question is... still.... why.... do some filters cost $30 delivering pretty darn good results while other filters cost $80 delivering also pretty darn good results? I just can't wrap my mind around that issue.
 
If possible, all of this would be so much easier to compare if the subjectiveness was removed by doing a simple video with a Macbeth color checker or even something as simple as a box of pool balls. Shoot the chart or the balls above water in full sunlight then get in the water, take it down slowly with a depth gauge in the shot showing the depth as you slowly descend and watch the show. You could easily see the results of these filters as apples and apples since you're comparing known colors instead of guessing what a fish, coral, sand should look like....
41mnV6mp0RL.jpg




500-mini-pool-balls.jpg

This was the way we used to check film way back in the pre-digital age. Photographers would even check batches of film this way. For example before a National Geo Graphic photographer would go out on a 3 month photo expedition he would shoot test rolls of different batches of film and take 400 rolls of the batch number of the one he liked the color rendition the best.

This simple method would demonstrate these filters much more effectively.
 
Your blog post has a questionable video by a manufacturer of a product as its main source, all the useful information looks very much like a rewording of an article on the URPro website. The rest has very little substance, the Sony rx100 is a good camera but using it for what you are is quite laughable and shows how much credibility your scientific research has. Beyond testing with your calibrated scientific grade rx100 lol what is there in that post that tells me anything of importance that I can't get from the urpro filter article myself. URPRO Patented Underwater Correction Filters

Beyond that you have opinions based on your own theories with no practical tests or results shown anywhere in the blog, again like I said an AWB gopro will give random results as the algorithim used is for above water full colour spectrum and freaks out at times when underwater due to the diminishing colours with depth. This is greatly improved with a filter, you can see any of my results or the millions of other users out there. Even though filters aren't intended to be used on awb cameras the go pro without a filter will really struggle very shallow.

You will get better overall results with the higher grade materials as you know when it comes to optics, results may favour an overly dark filter in some poor light conditions due to it forcing more red by filtering others out much stronger. This will lead to more light loss and in good ideal conditions where filters are best this will degrade the image. The filter colour is one thing and the material is another, filters are not really intended to be used with awb cameras but surprisingly help the go pro quite a bit to set a better wb in auto.

Like I told the guys at polar pro I could easily post video favouring one filter over the other if I cherry picked the footage to where one gets awb issues and the other doesn't. This has nothing to do with the filter but the cameras awb, but if you actually look at the results from each you can tell where the better filters give better results in terms of overall colour. The magic filters are great at shallower levels and the urpro works to slightly deeper depth some get close to these but many are struggling more due to colour and cheap materials used.

For what its worth the polar pro videos I have seen show way too much red at normal working depths and so this will likely help the gopro wb in poor conditions but hurt the image when its good.

I think the PP gel sheet would most likely be a much better option then the clip on they made simply due to materials. Gel sheets are proven to work and are a common low cost option for filters. A good one may be as good as an external premium filter. Disadvantage is you need to put it inside the housing which is not convenient and can't be easily added or removed even on land. Going for cheap injection molded cubed plastic hasn't been used by anyone for good optics for a reason. Its a cheap option, I would rather use better equipment but many people just want the cheapest and if its good enough for them then everyone is happy.

The main purpose of a filter is not to help with wb but let the camera sensor capture more colours that it doesn't due to the strong and dominated blues in the water, a manual wb camera will give the best results every time as white balance and CC are two different things. You can get a great wb at depth with no filter but the image will lack colour combine the 2 and you get the best results. That's the main purpose of a filter, our eyes are better then any cameras sensor yet we lose colour at dept if we can't see it what chance has the sensor got of picking it up. Add a filter you reduce the dominant blues and you will pick up better colours then without. Pretty simple really but you need to get a good wb also and this is the trick with awb in the go pro that produces such inconsistent results at times.

Original GoPro's only did a full auto white balance and as anyone knows this sucks beyond 5m in most cases, using a filter will improve this greatly and there are a few to choose from. The main reason I would have liked to try the polar pro is to see how it handles the corners as that design is likely going to have an effect on the edges in full wide modes.

There are still very few user videos showing the pp and even the 5 they gave away haven't produced many videos. Heck if they sent the one to me they said they would publicly I would have tested it at the first good opportunity. I would have bought one just so I can test it and post some findings as I did with all the other things I have bought or been sent at times.

---------- Post added January 7th, 2013 at 12:56 PM ----------

If possible, all of this would be so much easier to compare if the subjectiveness was removed by doing a simple video with a Macbeth color checker or even something as simple as a box of pool balls. Shoot the chart or the balls above water in full sunlight then get in the water, take it down slowly with a depth gauge in the shot showing the depth as you slowly descend and watch the show. You could easily see the results of these filters as apples and apples since you're comparing known colors instead of guessing what a fish, coral, sand should look like....





This was the way we used to check film way back in the pre-digital age. Photographers would even check batches of film this way. For example before a National Geo Graphic photographer would go out on a 3 month photo expedition he would shoot test rolls of different batches of film and take 400 rolls of the batch number of the one he liked the color rendition the best.

This simple method would demonstrate these filters much more effectively.

Mike that is a good idea but only if you have a fixed WB mode not auto as the shifting WB makes comparing colours of filters fairly pointless side by side. If you dont have a consistent camera that is constantly shifting colour balance trying to compare 2 filters side by side when a camera without a filter can be so different is as I said pointless. You can cherry pick either one to look better then the other, if you pick the best shots from each then you can get a fairer comparison comparing them at their best not when one has AWB issues and the other doesnt.

I should have posted this earlier on but this is where I first noticed how bad the GoPro's AWB is. This was my first 3D dive using the EOM 3d housing, its only very shallow at Rye pier around 6m max but no filters or colour correction has been added. 2 Cameras side by side in a 3D housing produce such different results and I saw the same things in my 6 camera test at Fish Rock which I have just finished rendering and will up soon also.

[video=youtube;T35aPmaQDWM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T35aPmaQDWM[/video]

Its a 3d video but if you set view settings to side by side you will see how much the images vary, the AWB is almost random and has always been my biggest gripe about the gopro cameras. Interceptor you said my newer videos are getting much better and the surprising thing is it has been getting better since using the SRP gear and the reason I am a big fan of them. Even if you say its so terribly engineered that it should be casing me all sorts of issues compared to an alternative setup. Id like you to post me a link of what you would consider a setup that will give me better results at a much cheaper price and why.

The new 3 Black with cam raw has given me consistent workable results in every single frame, the auto mode without filters will give this sort of results on the good shots and some end up completly useless. Once I started using filters videos improved greatly and I was impressed how well the hero1 did in Thailand with a URPro CY filter to 30m depths in comparison to without a filter at 5m. That is why since using filters I have never done a daytime dive without one. The new 3 Black will actually do quite well without a filter too as you can set WB easily but it lacks colour at depth which the filters bring back.

I tried to do some more testing with protune on the hero2 to compare filters but found the exact same issues, I will do some filter comparisons with the 3 in cam raw though at a later date which will give results with much more meaning.
 
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Wow, a lot of drama over filters.

I like engineering, but sometimes I skip all the technical stuff and just observe the end results. In this case, what my eyes see. The cheap internal Lee filter I use at $7 for a 21"x24" sheet works great. Never have a problem inserting or removing it from the housing. Is it as good as a UrPro ? Having used a UrPro on my older systems, I estimate the end results are close. In my unscientific opinion of course.

Here is the link to the Lee filter webpage for those curious. It includes a color wavelength chart. They have plenty of color options if people want to experiment. Filter color 008 looks interesting. A little less yellow in comparison.

Colour Information and Spectral Charts for LEE Lighting Filters

I also had some surprisingly decent results shooting with LED lights and the filter which made the filter being non removable UW a non issue for me. I can totally understand people wanting an external removable filter, but for my style of shooting, it is not needed.
 




Mike that is a good idea but only if you have a fixed WB mode not auto as the shifting WB makes comparing colours of filters fairly pointless side by side. If you dont have a consistent camera that is constantly shifting colour balance trying to compare 2 filters side by side when a camera without a filter can be so different is as I said pointless. You can cherry pick either one to look better then the other, if you pick the best shots from each then you can get a fairer comparison comparing them at their best not when one has AWB issues and the other doesnt.

If the camera you're using can't give you accurate color results then that's the camera review, not a filter review. It's not going to give you accurate color results no matter what filter you use. So just use a camera that does give constant results to do a filter review.

Reviewing anything, I don't want to just see the best results I want to see the real world results. Sounds like all this is just one more reason the Gopro is just lacking and once again.

---------- Post added January 6th, 2013 at 10:53 PM ----------

Curious, is nobody filtering the lights instead of the camera in video?
 
I know this doesn't compare to the videos that folks have been taking with additional lighting and filters, but I've been using my H3B on a few dives now and the raw camera improvements over my old Flip cam are amazing. The noise is significantly reduced and the sensor is able to capture enough red even at 95ft depth / 15ft viz to allow for decent software-only color correction in post.

[video=youtube;M3oJ5wRCvRQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3oJ5wRCvRQ[/video]

One thing that surprised me is that the white balance feature in Cineform Studio is WAY better than what is doable in iMovie. I'm not expecting miracles but this comes pretty close compared to what I've been using in the past. For an inexpensive (expensive?) miniature action cam, the H3B is exactly what I've been looking for.
 


Curious, is nobody filtering the lights instead of the camera in video?

Inon make filters for their lights to change the colour temperature

INON Diffuser Overview

Oh no wait colour temperature this has nothing to do with filters!!! :D
 

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