How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

[MauiScubaSteve]

It's sort of odd, but sort of the same; teaching mostly from Maui's shore and guiding from Maui's boats. Nearly tropical nearly all the time. My students could pretty easily dive straight away with their classmate(s), at the sites where they did their check out dives. As they sign off on their cert I am telling them that AFAIC, "in conditions similar to those trained" pretty much means just at those training sites.

Then with a boatload of certified tourists at Molokini or Lanai; most have never dove the site we are on or it was once, years ago. For some reason all the dive charters here are guided. The only two plausible reasons I can see are; the open to interpretation wording of the Hawaii State boating regs or the negative word of mouth about nothing to see in Hawaii from divers without guides, but I guess it could also be to limit the personal injury of the guests. :shocked2:

Either way and either way, following an experienced guide/instructor is such a good idea I follow them when I'm on vacation.

 

[briannaunderwater]

I thought that was the point of open water was to get you ready to dive open water without a DM or instructor? I know that I only did 2 dives with a DM only b/c they were out of my skill as a OW diver, but after just me and an OW buddy.

Thanks to you and everyone for your feedback. In fact, there are so many great opinions and comments (many were emailed to me, for which I thank you kindly). I have decided to try to get a higher volume of opinions in this piece, because I can see there are such widely divergent opinions, with great points on all sides. I think I will play the role of neutral observer and report both sides of the issue.

So, chances are I will not be able to interview everyone who has responded. So here's what I propose. If you have a strong opinion on this issue, please send it to me via email at briannapstevens@yahoo.com. It would be best if you could give me a statement summing up your opinion, accompanied by (if you've got one) a story or anecdote from your own experience . . . either you were too green and you made a mistake, or it was no problem and you don't regret a thing.

If you would like me to quote you, please include your whole name, your email address and phone number (in case I need to ask you followup questions). Let me know if you're a new diver, an experienced diver, a DM, an instructor . . .just give me an idea of where you are coming from.

I cannot tell how much I appreciate your help. I promise to go over your quotes with you before submitting the story, so that you can ensure that what you've said is fairly represented.

Many thanks, all!

Cheers,
Brianna Stevens, PADI Divemaster
briannapstevens@yahoo.com

 

[briannaunderwater]

OP -- Thank you for asking the question AND for attempting to write the article. Please ignore those who have written "IF the OW class had been good, they'd be able to dive on their own." Yup, and if pigs had wings they might be able to fly.

Well said. May I quote you? If so, please email me your full name and contact information. I really like what you said. My email address is briannapstevens@yahoo.com (please include your scubaboard name, too, so I know who to attribute your quote to!). Thanks! Cheers, Brianna

 

[briannaunderwater]

Either way and either way, following an experienced guide/instructor is such a good idea I follow them when I'm on vacation.

Know what? I'm a DM and I feel much the same way. (Unless I know the site well.) Thanks for your response! May I quote you? Thanks! Cheers, Brianna

 

[briannaunderwater]

This article is nothing more than a reinforcement of the dumbing down of American divers and another example of the SCUBA industry shooting itself in the foot. Unless I'm way off base and owe you an apology.

Um . . . . slow down there, cowboy. First off, I'm not even taking an opinion on this subject. I'm presenting both sides of the issue, with no editorialization. Second, dear, I'm a DM. You're among friends here. I promise you--no conspiracy theories are afoot. As an instructor, don't you want your students to read about how to decide when *they* will know they're ready to dive without a guide? As a DM, I'd like them to ask themselves this question, and I'd like them to have lots of informed opinions to help them make that decision. You're way off base, but I'm a good sport; no apology necessary. Cheers.

To everyone: If I didn't think this topic was controversial, I wouldn't have proposed it as an idea. Sure, I knew it was a can of worms! Bring it on. This is serious stuff. I want new divers to hear the opinions (no matter how varied) of experienced divers. So, please dish.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

I have a couple of opinions about this. As an instructor, I know that my students are ready to dive like the big kids when I give them certification. They are green, they are new, but they are prepared.

I also remember those days back then, when I first trained. My first big girl dive was with the same outfit I trained with. Ironically, it was a new dive site to me, and I was given a very short site briefing. They expected me to be ready. You know what, I was. I went out, puddled around, looked at the fishies, and made it right back. I was ready. Was I aboslutely confident? No. I was new. That is part of the package. Confidence is built.

My students come to dive with me after training. I brief the dive and send them off. They love coming up and talking about their dive to me on the SI. They are happy that I show my confidence in them by sending them off to dive. I wouldn't do it if they weren't ready. But do they feel absolutely ready? Does anyone? It's like driving your car for the first time alone. You are ready, but scared, nonetheless. And that can keep you on your toes.

The last part of this- These people are not ready to problem-solve, navigate, dive independently:
1. Those who take the super rush courses and are really not ready- many of those feel they are, and they get in minor to major mishaps, as a result.
2. Those who plan to be guided- you know you've heard it, " I don't need to learn to navigate, because I will always have my husband/ dive guide...."
3. Those who should have more time and work but don't put the extra into it. I won't cert them, but many do.

 

[Wookie]

Um . . . . slow down there, cowboy. First off, I'm not even taking an opinion on this subject. I'm presenting both sides of the issue, with no editorialization. Second, dear, I'm a DM. You're among friends here. I promise you--no conspiracy theories are afoot. As an instructor, don't you want your students to read about how to decide when *they* will know they're ready to dive without a guide? As a DM, I'd like them to ask themselves this question, and I'd like them to have lots of informed opinions to help them make that decision. You're way off base, but I'm a good sport; no apology necessary. Cheers.

To everyone: If I didn't think this topic was controversial, I wouldn't have proposed it as an idea. Sure, I knew it was a can of worms! Bring it on. This is serious stuff. I want new divers to hear the opinions (no matter how varied) of experienced divers. So, please dish.

Well, actually, cowboy was many years and pounds ago. Some poor horse would look at me now and quiver in fear at the thought of me on it's back. It's "Captain" now.

No, actually, I don't want my students reading about when they are "too green to dive without an instructor or DM". Your premise (or at least the title of this thread) is that divers may come out of a scuba instructional course without the requisite skills to plan and execute a dive in conditions similar to the conditions in which they were certified. I'd much rather make sure that they are confident and know that they have the skills required than assume that the training agencies leave them so unprepared they can't even navigate? Who ever heard of certifying an Open Water diver and not providing them with some basic compass skills or natural navigation skills. And the instructors who posted on this thread about how "the reality is that we all know that divers come out of class unprepared to meet the demands of scuba diving independently" or however they said it, that's a cop out. If any instructor is turning out students that are unprepared to plan and execute a dive "in conditions similar to their training location" independently of an instructor or DM, they need to hang up their fins and find another hobby.

As I said earlier, I think a mentorship with a more qualified dive buddy is a fantastic way to build skills. And, with over 6,000 logged dives, I too dive with a guide/DM/Critter-pointer-outer when I'm in a new location. More than that, as an operator, I hire local knowledge when the operation goes to a new location. I pay attention to what that hired professional (usually a local Captain, sometimes a dive guide) tells and shows me, as I am paying them for their knowledge, but I'm not too "green" to execute the dive in this case, I'd just be wasting mine and my clients money and the local professional's time by not paying attention.

When you say you're a DM, I'd be interested in knowing what kind. Do you assist classes, which is very important, but a teaching assistant DM would have the viewpoint of having students who can't do anything for themselves, teaching them the skills needed to dive on their own (with the help of an instructor, of course), and turning them loose on the world. That's a far cry from being a dive leader or boat crew, where you receive these newly certified divers and show them the true wonders of the underwater world. If you are the latter, wouldn't you want your clients to come to you with the basic skills that we all learned (or were supposed to learn) when they present you with that temporary or plastic certification card that says that they are a diver? Wouldn't you want them to be able to kit themselves up without your input? Wouldn't you want them to have the confidence to know that, with a conditions/site briefing from you, including currents, visibility, landmarks, and unusual conditions they may encounter, that they can hop in, paddle around the bottom, see the 400 lb grouper behind the ledge, and come back to the boat without need of any intervention from you, except to check them back in, make sure they have air, and help them to their seat safely on a rocking boat? I know that's what I like to see.

I equate having a certification card to getting a drivers license or pilot's ticket. Is the new driver ready to race at LeMans? Not too likely. Is the new pilot ready to perform aerobatics? Again, probably not. Is that driver or pilot ready to hop in the car/plane and drive/fly from Kansas City to St. Louis? Sure they are. Will they be able to pull into a gas station/FBO and get a fillup? Sure they will. That's because their drivers ed teacher/CFI gave them the skills necessary to have the title "Driver/Pilot". Will they make mistakes? Probably. Will they have accidents? Some percentage will. Hopefully they are accidents that they will walk away from. Gee. Just like diving, the way the system is designed.

I'd love to see you write a slightly different kind of article. Instead of trying to tell divers how to decide if they are too green to dive on their own without the supervision of a DM or instructor, I'd like you to tell divers how to insist that they get quality training in the first place. I'd like you to give them the tools they need to pick a competent, reliable instructor who truly cares about the "diving career" of their student. I'd like you to tell them that if they don't feel confident to plan and execute a dive on their own after certification, than their instructor did them a disservice, and they need to go back to him/her and finish their training. Too many instructors get hung up on the "formula" of making a new diver. Tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, tell them what you told them, go to the pool and learn 22 new skills, go to the ocean and demonstrate mastery of those skills, take a test, and voila, you're a diver. This formula is a recipe for disaster, not just for the student, but for the industry as a whole, for these certified divers may know how to perform certain skills, but they don't know HOW TO DIVE, because knowing how to dive takes more than mastery of a few skills. I can't tell you how many divers I know who tell me that their spouse took the course, but just doesn't feel comfortable in the water. Well, even I know enough to know that you can't make someone feel comfortable in the water. But if you have someone who is interested enough to learn, there is no reason for a good competent instructor not to give the time, effort, and skills to teach that person to be a diver, not just to master a skill set.

In closing, I don't think I'm way off base. By the title of this thread, you're making the assumption that there are divers out there that got out of a course with a card that still can't dive independently. By writing an article about it, you're legitimizing that stand. I think that's a dangerous path to follow, both for the individual diver and the industry as a whole. I think I'll reserve my apologies for when I see the finished product.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Comfort Factor #1: In-water training creates comfort with equipment and confidence

In my experience, I was diving solo as a 15 year-old kid immediately after I received my full OW certification. I felt entirely comfortable because I couldn't imagine getting myself into an equipment problem that I couldn't work my way out of thanks to a very good open water course which stressed combined problems such as performing all skills without a mask such as being able to remove and replace the scuba unit with and without a mask underwater, buddy breathe with and without, etc.

"The more you bleed in training, the less you'll die in combat."

Comfort Factor #2: Theory put into practice or theory kept in reserve

The more theory a diver is exposed to and the more theoretical concepts that are retained, the more a diver can draw upon the mind to influence physical actions in the environment and make decisions.

Comfort Factor #3: Life experiences prior to diving influence diving comfort

In my case, I had grown up snorkeling. Snorkeling wasn't just something to be done without a clue, but something I had been passionate about as a child. I had amassed a decent book collection of scuba manuals and books on all things ocean especially sharks and other dangerous marine species. Without an instructor, some skills I did incorrectly, other skills I performed in a better manner than what I learned in my scuba class. One thing I learned in my scuba class that I thought was total crap was the "good habit" of popping the snorkel during every exhalation while swimming on the surface to ensure that water didn't get in the tube. Noisy. Silly. I ejected habits I found to be stupid. A cautious inhalation allowed me to tell if water was in my tube and I could blast it out if it was - something I'd been doing naturally from childhood. During my open water training, I was still going snorkeling and attempting to push deeper numbers on my depth gauge (new to wearing a gauge), improve my propulsion and surface dives, etc. Class really helped me to snorkel deep with sweet surface dives.

A person with very strong swimming skills and prior knowledge of currents and wave action such as an avid and experienced surfer will be more willing and comfortable to begin, say, shore diving in the ocean, before a diver who has never been in a coastal zone.

A lifeguard or a Coast Guard rescue swimmer is more likely to feel comfortable going off the leash of a dive pro long before a timid swimmer.

Comfort Factor #4: Physical Fitness

The more physically fit a diver is the easier it will be to handle heavy gear by oneself, haul the gear to and from the dive site, get into one's equipment, and handle the diving conditions. A lack of strength will make a diver reliant upon others for help. A creative thinker may overcome weakness with cleverness, but one lacking in creative thinking will struggle and find gearing up to be arduous. If climbing up and down steps, ladders, negotiating rough terrain, or crossing long stretches of beach leaves a diver tired or breathless, the diver may have lost safe energy reserves that may be needed during the dive to deal with current, waves, surge, etc. Often wetsuits, hoods, gloves, BC's and fins, etc., are more difficult for obese divers to comfortably don. Strong swimming skills can overcome a lot of situations that tire others.

Comfort Factor #5: Attitude

Attitude is the most important key to how one perceives their current situation in the world whether it is how a diver perceives a new level of diving, a new dive site, or in a survival situation. The more comfortable and confident, the more positive the attitude.


Comfort Factor #6: Courage

The more courageous a person is the more likely that person will be willing to brave the unknown. Braving the unknown has somehow become a less than desirable human trait in our information age. With so much information available to us such as being able to Google Earth our travel destinations, watch live web cams, instant YouTube uploads, or ask for details of a dive site on ScubaBoard while in a wheelhouse, many people are uncomfortable with unknown variables. Those seeking some discovery are more likely just to go and see for themselves.

Comfort Factor #7: Environment and Depth

It doesn't matter whether you are a new open water diver, an experienced diver, a dive pro, a technical diver or technical instructor, everyone should take baby steps after a class. But, baby steps doesn't necessarily mean you need a buddy experienced in that endeavor. Experience may be defined as doing something incorrectly numerous times and having it not bite you on the @$$. I've known so many new cave divers who ended up doing "trust me" dives with experienced buddies, for example. Left to their own devices, they'd be taking baby steps, but buddies can encourage a diver to kick it up a notch. Start shallow. Start easy. Progress deep.

I'm a huge advocate of practicing for dives before doing them. This could mean swimming pool time before a trip, doing shallow wreck dives before hitting the big one, or practicing in the cavern zone at the start of a cave trip practicing OOG, drills, stage/deco bottle drops and pick-ups.

Comfort Factor #8: Common Sense

Anyone possessing an ounce of this doesn't need a pound of rules.

In Summary: A well trained, physically fit, and intelligent diver with a little guts and some common sense should be capable of diving without an instructor from the start. Any deficiencies in training, theory, fitness, courage, common sense, positive attitude, or parallel experiences should be red flags to hold back on going without a dive pro are trustworthy buddy.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In closing, I don't think I'm way off base. By the title of this thread, you're making the assumption that there are divers out there that got out of a course with a card that still can't dive independently. By writing an article about it, you're legitimizing that stand. I think that's a dangerous path to follow, both for the individual diver and the industry as a whole. I think I'll reserve my apologies for when I see the finished product.

... although I completely agree with the premise that people should be trained to dive independently upon completion of OW, I believe that the assumption you mention is the reality. I'm not sure that an article based on that premise legitimizes the position, so much as simply acknowledging that it exists.

To pretend otherwise is, to my concern, more dangerous than acknowledging the reality ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

... although I completely agree with the premise that people should be trained to dive independently upon completion of OW, I believe that the assumption you mention is the reality. I'm not sure that an article based on that premise legitimizes the position, so much as simply acknowledging that it exists.

To pretend otherwise is, to my concern, more dangerous than acknowledging the reality ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

As usual, Trace was able to put my thoughts into words far more eloquently than did I. Thanks, Trace.

So, Bob, do we acknowledge and accept that many instructors will train substandard divers and that dive operators/instabuddies will bear the brunt of that dismal training, or do we tilt at windmills and do everything in our power to ensure that lousy instructors are censured and removed from the diving gene pool, as it were. Do we accept this with our CFI's or our drivers ed teachers? Is mediocrity now the accepted substitute for superiority? If we expect divers coming out of training to not be able to dive without a professional, how far should we lower the bar? Why bother issuing a c-card at all? Let's make all divers dive with a professional. Oh, Snap. We did that by allowing divers to have a Scuba Diver certification card. Cut the standards to something barely above resort course, and make the diver dive with a DM. If this is the case (and it appears that it is), then we can now raise the bar for Open Water courses and make those students able to fend for themselves in most conditions. If there is a desire. For you and I to argue that "Open Water training sucks, let's deal with it" vs" Open water training sucks, let's fix it" gives more indication that the industry has already lost the battle. Now that we've decided we're prostitutes, all that's left to determine is the price at which we can be bought.

Sad.