Horrible Experience In Confined Water Training

[DANDM]

I’ve broken my nose at least 3 times

Don't give Padi more ideas for specialties please

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I wish I had learnt to dive with a class like this. I did a very common 1 day at the pool plus 2 days open water type course. It wasn't too bad, as the instructors were patient and kind, but I had so much left to learn after completing the course.

I'm curious, how do the economics of a course like this works? How much more expensive is it for the students, and did you get enough students?

I'm not an instructor, and might never bother to become one. But purely for self interest I compare all the OW options in my corner of the planet. All the LDSs here teach a very typical PADI curriculum of a pool day plus 2 days in open water, with rather large cohorts per instructor. Not impressive at all! And when we get these new divers joining our social dive clubs, we end up having to mentor them a lot, they're so unprepared...

A couple of independent instructors here add an extra day, with a maximum of 3 students, to make sure the students are well prepared. But the price of these independent instructors is naturally much higher than the LDSs. They don't seem to do OW often, so they've gone to niche courses like tech instead.

I did not teach for a living. I rarely took more than 2 students at a time for Open Water. I might take 3 if two were a couple or parent/child. One time I took 4. Two children, mom, and grandfather. Due to scheduling for most of the class, I had two of them. The last two sessions, once I was sure they would be ok, I had all 4 in the pool. On checkouts I took two at time. Having them switch buddies. I did 4 dives per day. They did two. Last checkout I had all 4 working as two buddy teams. I kept very close watch and it went fine. But that was the last time I took that many.
On many occasions I taught private classes. My OW class was 375.00 and included classroom materials and gear in the pool. They needed to provide mask, fins, snorkel, and boots. I taught at a shop with it's own pool and pool time for me was $50 as long as I opened the shop one evening a week. That was for the entire class. Not per session. If they bought their gear from the shop, the fee was waived.
So, in many ways I was very lucky to have that arrangement. Many times I would be at the shop because I wanted something to do in the evening. I'd vis tanks, run the pool vac, do some fills, etc. As a result I never paid for fills or vis. Hydro's were at shop cost.
And I was a YMCA instructor first. That meant snorkeling and freediving skills before the student could be put on SCUBA. Weight checks done at the beginning and end of every session. Basic skills demonstrated by the student every session.
We did bailouts. Sit on the edge of the pool with all gear held in lap. Weight belt over the shoulder. Regulator in mouth and breathing. Fall forward and don gear as you descend.
Doff and don. Remove all gear at the bottom of the deep end. Ascend to surface while exhaling. Within 30 seconds dive back down and put gear back on.
Last pool session was rescue skills. Panicked diver at the surface, non-responsive diver from depth, rescue tow while stripping gear and get diver out of the pool, and I added supporting a diver at the surface for two minutes and help them achieve positive buoyancy.
This was done as buddy teams. If I had a private class I'd get someone to come in and play victim and let the student do most of the work while I assisted.
We taught actual buddy breathing.
When my students went to OW checkouts I was sure that if I had a problem they could assist me.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Sounds like this is well before the days of e-learning. I take well to e-learning, while I assume a lot of people do not. That said, 6 weeks to get certified OW is a bit asinine.

I was a YMCA instructor first. YMCA standards required a minimum of 12 hours in the pool with 14-16 recommended. The curriculum was not simple.

Mastery was not clear a fully flooded mask one time smoothly. It was clear it while task loaded or in the middle of another skill multiple times.

All skills were done neutral and horizontal. Including the BC remove and replace.

Buoyancy and trim were the first skills taught. Using proper weighting and lung volume control.
That meant snorkeling and freediving skills before the student could be put on SCUBA.
Before donning a scuba unit they had to be able to toss their mask in the deep end and swim 25 feet to retrieve it from the bottom and clear the mask and have the snorkel breathable when their head broke the surface.

Weight checks are done at the beginning and end of every session. Basic skills are demonstrated by the student every session.

We did bailouts. Sit on the edge of the pool with all gear held in your lap. The weight belt over the shoulder. Regulator in the mouth and breathing. Fall forward and don gear as you descend.

Doff and don. Remove all gear at the bottom of the deep end. Ascend to the surface while exhaling. Within 30 seconds, dive back down and put gear back on. That sadly went away after some nitwit in Texas tried it unsupervised and not a YMCA diver, and embolized and died. It was a great confidence builder and task-loading exercise.

The last pool session was rescue skills. Panicked diver at the surface, non-responsive diver from depth, rescue tow while stripping gear and getting diver out of the pool, and I added supporting a diver at the surface for two minutes and helping them achieve positive buoyancy.

This was done in buddy teams. If I had a private class, I'd get someone to come in and play victim and let the student do most of the work while I assisted.
We taught actual buddy breathing.

When my students went to OW checkouts, I was sure that if I had a problem, they could assist me.

E-learning has nothing to do with building muscle memory in the water. And under SDI standards, e-learning was not supposed to replace classroom time if used correctly. It is used to supplement it and allow the instructor to add material specific to the location, conditions, and the instructor's experience.
I supplemented the material with my book, which includes gas planning, cylinder matching, rescue considerations, and overall dive planning that begins when the decision to dive is made and everything from that point is part of the dive plan. Location, choice of buddy, and skills and any additional equipment required, travel, food, and the actual dive itself.

My students had cleared a fully flooded mask a dozen times before we went to open water under different degrees of task loading.

I found that 2 hours in the pool was the limit for most under normal task loading. After that, they start to get tired and cold. When that happens, the learning process stops.
It takes time to reinforce all of that. Because I had to teach that once they got their card, they weren't going to have or need an instructor or DM for their subsequent dives.

I did have a couple of people over the years tell me the time was too much. I told them to compare the content. And if they still wanted to have a shorter class, go somewhere else. I didn't want anyone as a student who was willing to cut corners.

I had an 80% +/- rate of return for at least one more class. And more than a few divers who went to different resorts thanked me for giving them the education they got. One couple told me they were asked by a boat guide if they were DM's. It was their 9th and 10th dives after getting their OW card.

 

[Wheeler925]

I was a YMCA instructor first. YMCA standards required a minimum of 12 hours in the pool with 14-16 recommended. The curriculum was not simple.

Mastery was not clear a fully flooded mask one time smoothly. It was clear it while task loaded or in the middle of another skill multiple times.

All skills were done neutral and horizontal. Including the BC remove and replace.

Buoyancy and trim were the first skills taught. Using proper weighting and lung volume control.
That meant snorkeling and freediving skills before the student could be put on SCUBA.
Before donning a scuba unit they had to be able to toss their mask in the deep end and swim 25 feet to retrieve it from the bottom and clear the mask and have the snorkel breathable when their head broke the surface.

Weight checks are done at the beginning and end of every session. Basic skills are demonstrated by the student every session.

We did bailouts. Sit on the edge of the pool with all gear held in your lap. The weight belt over the shoulder. Regulator in the mouth and breathing. Fall forward and don gear as you descend.

Doff and don. Remove all gear at the bottom of the deep end. Ascend to the surface while exhaling. Within 30 seconds, dive back down and put gear back on. That sadly went away after some nitwit in Texas tried it unsupervised and not a YMCA diver, and embolized and died. It was a great confidence builder and task-loading exercise.

The last pool session was rescue skills. Panicked diver at the surface, non-responsive diver from depth, rescue tow while stripping gear and getting diver out of the pool, and I added supporting a diver at the surface for two minutes and helping them achieve positive buoyancy.

This was done in buddy teams. If I had a private class, I'd get someone to come in and play victim and let the student do most of the work while I assisted.
We taught actual buddy breathing.

When my students went to OW checkouts, I was sure that if I had a problem, they could assist me.

E-learning has nothing to do with building muscle memory in the water. And under SDI standards, e-learning was not supposed to replace classroom time if used correctly. It is used to supplement it and allow the instructor to add material specific to the location, conditions, and the instructor's experience.
I supplemented the material with my book, which includes gas planning, cylinder matching, rescue considerations, and overall dive planning that begins when the decision to dive is made and everything from that point is part of the dive plan. Location, choice of buddy, and skills and any additional equipment required, travel, food, and the actual dive itself.

My students had cleared a fully flooded mask a dozen times before we went to open water under different degrees of task loading.

I found that 2 hours in the pool was the limit for most under normal task loading. After that, they start to get tired and cold. When that happens, the learning process stops.
It takes time to reinforce all of that. Because I had to teach that once they got their card, they weren't going to have or need an instructor or DM for their subsequent dives.

I did have a couple of people over the years tell me the time was too much. I told them to compare the content. And if they still wanted to have a shorter class, go somewhere else. I didn't want anyone as a student who was willing to cut corners.

I had an 80% +/- rate of return for at least one more class. And more than a few divers who went to different resorts thanked me for giving them the education they got. One couple told me they were asked by a boat guide if they were DM's. It was their 9th and 10th dives after getting their OW card.

Good for you. Most of this sounds like an enormous waste of time and energy.

 

[Edward3c]

I did not teach for a living. I rarely took more than 2 students at a time for Open Water. I might take 3 if two were a couple or parent/child. One time I took 4. Two children, mom, and grandfather. Due to scheduling for most of the class, I had two of them. The last two sessions, once I was sure they would be ok, I had all 4 in the pool. On checkouts I took two at time. Having them switch buddies. I did 4 dives per day. They did two. Last checkout I had all 4 working as two buddy teams. I kept very close watch and it went fine. But that was the last time I took that many.
On many occasions I taught private classes. My OW class was 375.00 and included classroom materials and gear in the pool. They needed to provide mask, fins, snorkel, and boots. I taught at a shop with it's own pool and pool time for me was $50 as long as I opened the shop one evening a week. That was for the entire class. Not per session. If they bought their gear from the shop, the fee was waived.
So, in many ways I was very lucky to have that arrangement. Many times I would be at the shop because I wanted something to do in the evening. I'd vis tanks, run the pool vac, do some fills, etc. As a result I never paid for fills or vis. Hydro's were at shop cost.
And I was a YMCA instructor first. That meant snorkeling and freediving skills before the student could be put on SCUBA. Weight checks done at the beginning and end of every session. Basic skills demonstrated by the student every session.
We did bailouts. Sit on the edge of the pool with all gear held in lap. Weight belt over the shoulder. Regulator in mouth and breathing. Fall forward and don gear as you descend.
Doff and don. Remove all gear at the bottom of the deep end. Ascend to surface while exhaling. Within 30 seconds dive back down and put gear back on.
Last pool session was rescue skills. Panicked diver at the surface, non-responsive diver from depth, rescue tow while stripping gear and get diver out of the pool, and I added supporting a diver at the surface for two minutes and help them achieve positive buoyancy.
This was done as buddy teams. If I had a private class I'd get someone to come in and play victim and let the student do most of the work while I assisted.
We taught actual buddy breathing.
When my students went to OW checkouts I was sure that if I had a problem they could assist me.

That’s pretty much the old A to G tests BSAC ran until the 1980s.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Good for you. Most of this sounds like an enormous waste of time and energy.

And it's why I would never accept anyone who thought that as a student or dive with them.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Good for you. Most of this sounds like an enormous waste of time and energy.

It would be an enormous waste of time and energy for someone who dives once a year in rental gear in somewhere like Cozumel or similar where they do everything for you short of wiping your ass, and has no desire to go beyond that. Those divers really don't need to know much of anything except how not to drown.
But that's not the type of diver Jim was training.

 

[pelagic_one]

When diving, many things are happening at the same time. Like flying an airplane, it is a complex process. Many forces are happening simultaneously, everything needs attention and responses to emergencies must be instantaneous without any thought process. Back to diving, the first 3 to 6 feet of descent is the most challenging. Water pressure changes are proportionately higher than descending from 10 to 16 feet and not noticeable from 100 to 106 feet. If you have trouble equalizing, hang on to the pool ladder and work on that skill only. Crawl down or up as necessary. Failing to clear your ears and "going down" anyway is not learning. Over the pool session time or even multiple sessions, your airways across the ear drums will open and clearing your ears will become much easier. Between dives, you'll hear your ears clearing when you swallow and even going up and down hills in a car.

Sit on the pool floor in three feet of water and get used to breathing, keeping water out of your mask and un-fogged. Let water into your mask and clear it. Remove and replace mask. Some people zip through these things, others need to learn in steps.

I better stop, I am not an instructor, this was my experience. I think a dive shop that has open water training throughout the year should allow students to progress at their own comfortable rate even if it means repetitive sessions in ongoing classes. My ground school instructor said I was always welcome to sit through his class again.

 

[WOB0.01J]

I have dreamed of learning to scuba dive for many years. I love the ocean and aquatic creatures. I went snorkeling for the first time while on vacation last month and swimming around with the fish was literally the best experience I've ever had. When I got home I decided to finally make the significant financial investment to enroll in a basic scuba diving course.

Knowing literally nothing about the scuba diving community and all the different agencies, I chose to go with PADI as they are the largest and the most accessible to me. I completed the e-learning this past week and did the confined water dives over the weekend. I was SO EXCITED to finally be learning scuba and was feeling thrilled, giddy, and confident when starting the confined water training. I left feeling deeply unhappy, unprepared, in pain, and insecure in my overall abilities.

Disappointingly, I am not a natural at diving. I did not instantly take to swimming with fins and using the equipment properly. I needed some extra guidance to figure things out, but the instructor clearly expected me to perform all these new skills with perfect mastery on my first attempt. For example, when I didn't perform the emergency ascent using my buddy's alternate air source perfectly on my first try, she absolutely BERATED me. Told me I was awful, that's the worst she's ever seen, that I'm out of air and dead now and I should be ashamed of myself. I UNDERSTAND the importance of out-of-air procedures! This was my FIRST TIME EVER DOING THIS. Her yelling at me and berating me made me feel so stressed out and upset that it actively made it more difficult for me to learn.

On the first day, I had some difficulty descending and staying down while properly weighted. I am able to equalize but its kinda slow so I was descending slowly in order to compensate and not experience pain. I was also having some trouble maintaining depth and would bob back up sometimes- why? Not deflating BCD properly? Not in a horizontal position? Something else? I don't know, she never explained or tried to help me figure it out. She just added more weights to my BCD so I literally sunk like a stone. After being overweighted, I still attempted to descend slowly in order to make sure I was fully equalizing and comfortable. My instructor reached up, fully deflated my BCD, and pulled me down so hard and fast that I experienced MASSIVE ear pain, and this was only in 12 ft of water. She started doing this consistently and I would have to equalize once down at the bottom, sunk like a stone, and in pain. I explained to her that I was having trouble equalizing quickly which is why I was trying to descend slow and controlled and she was like, "you'll figure it out" and continued to aggressively drag me down in this way. I had already been struggling with maintaining neutral buoyancy once underwater while properly weighted, and with the extra weights, it was WAY WAY harder. On the second and final day I asked for the extra weights to be removed so I could learn to do things properly, and she declined. I left my final day of training with an EXTREMELY painful sinus squeeze due to being pulled down so fast without being able to properly equalize. It's been about 16 hours now and it's feeling a bit better but I literally had to call out of work because of it.

I spent over $800 on this initial training, and that is not chump change for me. I know scuba is an expensive hobby, and part of that price was the online course and equipment, but I'm really disappointed that I feel entirely unprepared to move onto open water dives after spending that kind of money. I also very much resent that I spent so much money on something that should be challenging but fun only to be berated, yelled at, and feel stressed out the whole time, and come home in extreme pain that was entirely preventable. Sure, I passed the confined water training on paper, but I honestly do NOT feel prepared or comfortable to start the open water training dives. It's not that I'm not uncomfortable underwater- I was never in fear or panicking, and it felt absolutely awesome and almost magical to be able to breathe submerged. I just needed some extra time and patience to learn the new skills and equipment and I don't feel like I got that. There was no repetition or reinforcement for any of the skills either- do it successfully once, now move on to the next thing. So I don't feel super confident in anything even though I know I have the ability to do it, if that makes sense. Is this a typical confined water training experience? Is it a PADI thing? Was my instructor just horrible? Or is it a skill issue on my part? I really want to continue pursuing my certification but this experience left such a bad taste in my mouth :/

I am sorry about your experience. And after reading all this stuff (assume all the horrific things you said is true), all i can say is this instructor needs to be retrained or let go. I would immediately find a new instructor, because some of the action that this instructor did could cause some serious injuries or even death. Don't be discouraged about this experience, you will improve drastically by diving regularly, and not by just finishing a course.