horizontal ascents

[lamont]

Not if a probe up your butt monitoring your core temperature says otherwise...

This thread is kind of making me feel like I've got a probe up my butt right now...

 

[ekewaka]

Hydrophobia?

I probably should have said H₂ and O₂, but water is actually not a mixture.

mixture
Chemistry, Physics. an aggregate of two or more substances that are not chemically united and that exist in no fixed proportion to each other.

 

[globaldiver]

Fist of all, it’s not “my study” it’s the only study. Either it works as an insulation gas of it doesn’t. The exact type of suit, exact type of underwear and the exact flavor of kool-aid does not matter as long as they are held constant for the two trials. This is what you don’t seem to understand: it would not matter if the suits were paper bags and the insulation cotton balls, if argon is better, it should be better under all circumstances. Perhaps a few publications and degrees in the esoteric field of Argon gas research might make you a bit less trigger happy when it comes to criticizing respected researchers with that most telling of all comments, "it's crap."

Since this is the only study that I know of and until there is contradictory evidence beyond “I think,” “I feel,” or “I guess,” we’ll just have to go with it till you wow us with your work.

As you may well know since you seem to have worked some with research material (judging from your statements in your posts and your profile), you know that one study in anything does not prove much at all. It may at most show a possible indication, but since there are so many variables in research it takes more than one study to show anything conclusive.

The scientists and researchers I have had the fortune to interact with have all held a very humble and "non confrontational" approach when it comes to research findings, especially their own. This mostly probably because they know from experience how difficult it can be to prove anything conclusive, and how much work and many studies it takes for a theory to be accepted as a "truth." And even if it finally is accepted, this conclusion may change a few years down the line as more studies have been completed.

Further, just because you have not heard of something does also not necessarily mean that it does not exist data or is not "what goes in the real world."

There are many discussions about the value of Argon as an insulating gas in scuba diving, but one thing I think that all agree on is that it is highly narcotic if breathed during higher pressure.

Horizontal ascents is included in the DIR way of diving, and this is a DIR forum. Clearly many people do not agree with this philosophy, and DIR diving is not intended for everybody.

If you have some research material to present regarding the value of vertical ascents over horizontal ascents, I would be very interested to read it. If there is no research done yet, your pointers are just as weak as the ones you try to disclaim...

Sincerely

Anders

 

[nadwidny]

Fist of all, it’s not “my study” it’s the only study.

Well, no, it isn't. It's just the only one you know about.

 

[Thalassamania]

There are many discussions about the value of Argon as an insulating gas in scuba diving, but one thing I think that all agree on is that it is highly narcotic if breathed during higher pressure.

Yes.

Horizontal ascents is included in the DIR way of diving, and this is a DIR forum. Clearly many people do not agree with this philosophy, and DIR diving is not intended for everybody.

Horizontal ascents are fine, they will not hurt you, but was we determined in the earlier discussion, there is no data to support the contention that a horizontal ascent promotes better off gassing.

If you have some research material to present regarding the value of vertical ascents over horizontal ascents, I would be very interested to read it. If there is no research done yet, your pointers are just as weak as the ones you try to disclaim...

I’ve not made any such claim. Have you read the thread?

Well, no, it isn't. It's just the only one you know about.

If you know of others we'd love you to share.

 

[Starboard Tack]

Thermal insulation properties of argon used as a dry suit inflation gas.

• Risberg J,
• Hope A.

Norwegian Underwater Institute and Royal Norwegian Navy, Bergen.

Uncontrolled observations from the "technical" diving community claim superior thermal comfort when replacing air with argon as dry suit inflation gas during diving. The objective of the present experiment was to evaluate the effectiveness of argon compared to air during cold water diving. Body weight, urinary output, and rectal and skin temperatures were measured in six naval divers during two dives to approximately 10 m for 60 min. Level of thermal comfort was reported. Dry suit gas was either argon or air, divers and scientists were blinded for gas identity. Urinary output was approximately 200 ml less (P < 0.05) during the air than the argon dives. Rectal and all skin temperatures decreased significantly in both groups during the dive but no difference was measured between argon and air dives. Thermal comfort was not different between the groups. Replacing air with argon neither improves subjective impression of thermal comfort nor attenuates core or skin cooling during cold water diving to 10 meters of sea water for 60 min.
PMID: 12067149 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

All of this argument about whether Argon is better than Air for insulation is moot. You CANNOT have a proper scientific research project that includes subjective data such as how comfortable a person is or how warm they feel. It doesn't even make sense to use a report like that as proof of one gas being superior to another. Or as proof of anything. IT IS SUBJECTIVE!! The test cannot be positively repeated and is therefore void as scientific proof of anything. There are entirely too many variables.

Instead, try looking at the properties of the gases themselves. Argon, as a monatomic gas reacts less to temperature changes than complex gases like Nitrogen and Air. Therefore it is a better insulator. In fact it is a much better insulator. If a person believes it won't keep them any warmer, then it won't. If they believe it will, it will. These are opinions. In fact, Argon insulates better than Air. End of argument. Use whichever you like, but Argon does the better job simply because of it's chemical and physical properties.

 

[Rainer]

All of this argument about whether Argon is better than Air for insulation is moot. You CANNOT have a proper scientific research project that includes subjective data such as how comfortable a person is or how warm they feel. It doesn't even make sense to use a report like that as proof of one gas being superior to another. Or as proof of anything. IT IS SUBJECTIVE!! The test cannot be positively repeated and is therefore void as scientific proof of anything. There are entirely too many variables.

Instead, try looking at the properties of the gases themselves. Argon, as a monatomic gas reacts less to temperature changes than complex gases like Nitrogen and Air. Therefore it is a better insulator. In fact it is a much better insulator. If a person believes it won't keep them any warmer, then it won't. If they believe it will, it will. These are opinions. In fact, Argon insulates better than Air. End of argument. Use whichever you like, but Argon does the better job simply because of it's chemical and physical properties.

Did you bother to actually read the report before posting? I doubt it. Subjective feelings of "cold" were only one of many measures. The other measures were all physiological. In any case, subjective feeling is quite scientific. Do you really believe the entire field of psychology is bunk? You might, but then that speaks to you, not the field. Now, go read the report.

 

[Soggy]

All of this argument about whether Argon is better than Air for insulation is moot. You CANNOT have a proper scientific research project that includes subjective data such as how comfortable a person is or how warm they feel.

That's why, if you read the paper, you would realize that they had thermal probes up their butts and skin thermal sensors all over their body.

Look, I don't agree with the findings either, but I at least bothered to read the thing.

 

[do it easy]

Geez Soggy, a while ago, it was monkeys and now it's thermal probes!! :11:

 

[nadwidny]

That's why, if you read the paper, you would realize that they had thermal probes up their butts and skin thermal sensors all over their body.

Despite the fact that the numbers they used was on the small side (6 divers, 12 dives), they did do a good job with all the probes and sensors to provide some hard data rather than just go by how the divers felt.

Look, I don't agree with the findings either, but I at least bothered to read the thing.

The conclusion I got is that it doesn't matter what gas one uses, crap underwear is still crap underwear.