horizontal ascents

[nadwidny]

Yes.

Horizontal ascents are fine, they will not hurt you, but was we determined in the earlier discussion, there is no data to support the contention that a horizontal ascent promotes better off gassing.

No data that says it doesn't either.

If you know of others we'd love you to share.

You're supposed to be the ones with the friends you can call. Call them. I'm not doing your homework for you.

 

[Thalassamania]

No data that says it doesn't either.



You're supposed to be the ones with the friends you can call. Call them. I'm not doing your homework for you.

I'm perfectly happy with the study as it stands. You are the one that implied that there are other studies, so it's not my homework it's your's, Be an adult. Either move on or supply something other than blather and bumph.

 

[Jason B]

The conclusion I got is that it doesn't matter what gas one uses, crap underwear is still crap underwear.

Outstanding!

 

[Soggy]

The conclusion I got is that it doesn't matter what gas one uses, crap underwear is still crap underwear.

Me too...

 

[rjack321]

The conclusion I got is that it doesn't matter what gas one uses, crap underwear is still crap underwear.

Bingo.

And substantive differences are harder to find when 6.5mm neoprene drysuits are providing the bulk of the insulation.

Argon is not useful for Norwegian Navy divers, no arguments from me on this point. But it does not follow that it is not useful for divers using shell suits and decent undergarments which are providing 100% of their insulation.

 

[nereas]

My feelings are the same as those described by yourself and Rainer. I've kind of had my hands full at work today, and am just now getting home, so sorry it's taken me a while to respond.

Now, on to the insulating factors of argon:

A little history: Lots of you know I learned mixed gas diving in the WKPP, I also learned the "we inflate drysuits with argon" mantra. I used to get VERY cold, even using argon, on long scootering dives (very little exertion). Then about 5 years ago I started doing a bunch of wreck diving (again), and I fell in with a regular group of dive buddies. Most of these guys never use argon in the suit, even when using high helium mixes. At first I thought they were crazy and they thought I carried too much crap. I finally got brave, and did a dive without argon. Guess what- I noticed very little difference, even when inflating the suit off a backgas of 10/90 heliox. I never use argon for suit inflation these days. I do use a seperate inflation bottle, but it's just air. Oh, and yes, I was using the same drysuit and undergarments (DUI 400G), and in fact THINNER undergarments as before. So... I have discovered some factors that affect my thermal comfort MUCH more than suit inflation gas-

1. fatigue- if I am tired, my little internal furnace doesn't regulate as well.
2. nutrition- I have to eat well, without a good breakfast (usually eggs, toast and fruit- and tea... I cant start the day without tea) I get colder. Same goes for late afternoon dives, a good mix of protien, carbohydrates and fats makes a difference.
3. hydration- I get cold if I am dehydrated
4. physical conditioning- I stay warmer when I put my time in at the gym lifting weights.

Some people swear by the argon (my husband is one), for me.... it's more "voodoo" than anything. If it works for you, great- if it doesn't, don't be afraid to skip it and try some other, more physiologically based solutions.

Heather

Thank you for the great summary, Chickdiver.

The tech instructor who trained and certified me also swears by argon and DUI 400Gs.

I tried air in the argon bottle a few times too, mostly to skimp on the cost, since argon is fairly expensive. But those dives turned out to be ones on which I shivered the most during deco.

So now I am back to argon in the argon bottle, together with my trilam shell suit and DUI 400Gs.

 

[nadwidny]

I'm perfectly happy with the study as it stands.

Then obviously you're perfectly happy with your ignorance. Enjoy.

You are the one that implied that there are other studies, so it's not my homework it's your's, Be an adult. Either move on or supply something other than blather and bumph.

I did. You didn't follow it up.

 

[Thalassamania]

I just went back over all your posts in this thread and other than make an unsupported and unsubstantiated claim that there was other research that I should go find you did nothing whatsoever. This has nothing to do agreement, criticism of disagreement with the Norwegian study, its everyone’s right to interpret that as they see fit and to argue about those interpretations, But you’ve made a specific claim that is untrue and unsupportable and then suggested that it is someone else’s responsibility to support your, well … shall we be polite and call it “misstatement?

 

[Starboard Tack]

Did you bother to actually read the report before posting? I doubt it. Subjective feelings of "cold" were only one of many measures. The other measures were all physiological. In any case, subjective feeling is quite scientific. Do you really believe the entire field of psychology is bunk? You might, but then that speaks to you, not the field. Now, go read the report.

I read the report beforehand. The probes and sensing equipment are useless in determining a difference when you have 6.5 mm neoprene doing most of the insulation. I'm simply stating that the properties of Ar show it is better as an insulating gas than air. Once the probes have been eliminated, all you have left is whether the diver felt cold or not. This goes for folks who believe air does the same job as Ar in shell suits. Often times they have already decided there is no difference and so they don't notice the difference between dives with air or Ar.

And no, I'm am not a huge subscriber to the science of Psychology.

 

[Thalassamania]

I read the report beforehand. The probes and sensing equipment are useless in determining a difference when you have 6.5 mm neoprene doing most of the insulation. I'm simply stating that the properties of Ar show it is better as an insulating gas than air. Once the probes have been eliminated, all you have left is whether the diver felt cold or not. This goes for folks who believe air does the same job as Ar in shell suits. Often times they have already decided there is no difference and so they don't notice the difference between dives with air or Ar.

And no, I'm am not a huge subscriber to the science of Psychology.

Your analysis, while heartfelt, is illogical.

If the 6.5 mil suits had prevented the divers from getting cold, then the results would be meaningless, but the divers got cold and the instrumentation showed that they got cold at, more or less, the same rate. The 6.5 mil suit proved the same level of insulation to both the experimental group and the control group. It would appear that air provided the same amount of additional insulation as argon provided. This is why the two groups cooled at the same rate. The results would have been the same regardless of the suit material. In point of fact it's rather a good thing that they did not have better underwear, if they had better they'd likely not have chilled and that would have meant no meaningful finding.