horizontal ascents

[riguerin]

The thermal conductivity properties of Argon are better compared to air. However, as some have alluded to, other factors can diminish it's effectiveness in the real world. There's a nice easy to follow description on Maiken's site.

 

[Soggy]

Well, it's certainly subjective and maybe voodoo, but I've known about this study since before I started using argon. I went into it with an open mind and came to the conclusion that I'm more comfortable with argon. I've re-read the study and it seems reasonably well done (except for the sample size), and I will still continue to use argon based on my own personal experiences.

 

[Rainer]

Soggy, as you probably just (re)read, they did indeed purge the suits (3x) before doing the dives.

 

[Rainer]

To follow up on rjack's point, these are full 6.5mm suits, no compressed neo suits.

 

[FishTaco]

We're lucky to have an expert like you here to tell us that. Would youy care to tell of of your degrees, your work in the field, your publications and to expand a bit beyond, "it is crap?"

The application of Argon gas in "your study" is not how it is used by DIR divers.

So, why does one need to be an expert with publications and degrees in the esoteric field Argon gas research to determine the study is crap? Please explain.

Chris

 

[Soggy]

The application of Argon gas in "your study" is not how it is used by DIR divers.

How so?

 

[Thalassamania]

The application of Argon gas in "your study" is not how it is used by DIR divers.

So, why does one need to be an expert with publications and degrees in the esoteric field Argon gas research to determine the study is crap? Please explain.

Chris

Fist of all, it’s not “my study” it’s the only study. Either it works as an insulation gas of it doesn’t. The exact type of suit, exact type of underwear and the exact flavor of kool-aid does not matter as long as they are held constant for the two trials. This is what you don’t seem to understand: it would not matter if the suits were paper bags and the insulation cotton balls, if argon is better, it should be better under all circumstances. Perhaps a few publications and degrees in the esoteric field of Argon gas research might make you a bit less trigger happy when it comes to criticizing respected researchers with that most telling of all comments, "it's crap."

Since this is the only study that I know of and until there is contradictory evidence beyond “I think,” “I feel,” or “I guess,” we’ll just have to go with it till you wow us with your work.

 

[nereas]

1) No. Argon costs more than He.
2) DIW.
3) It's stupid to breathe from your wing period (really a last resort). Breathing argon under pressure is also stupid (very narcotic).
4) DIW.
5) Don't do it.

Edit: CD can answer on her on, but I suspect her answers will look something like mine.

I agree with you, and those were also the cautions that I was given from my own tech instructor.

Additionally I was told that argon is such a dense gas that it may become difficult to ultimately expell it from your lungs, and therefore breathing any amount of argon may result in asphyxiation. Not just narcosis, but asphyxiation.

I would think that putting argon into your wing makes no sense at all. And it seems like there is little dissent (maybe only one person) on this.

I would think breathing from your wing would only be feasible in those short moments before death when all of your other gasses were exhausted, and you were still somehow trapped underwater.

And thus, breathing from your wing with argon in it is the worst of all worlds, and a one-way ticket into the next world, as it were.

But I was wondering how Chickdiver as a tech instructor approaches these argon issues with her tech students. She has chimed in on other issues on her own, and she is thus the only tech instructor on this board that I am even remotely familiar with.

 

[FishTaco]

The exact type of suit, exact type of underwear and the exact flavor of kool-aid does not matter as long as they are held constant for the two trials. This is what you don’t seem to understand: it would not matter if the suits were paper bags and the insulation cotton balls, if argon is better, it should be better under all circumstances.

Are you sure the type of suit and type of insulation doesn't matter?

A primary source of insulation on the test divers was provided by the 6.5 mm neoprene drysuits.
On a shell type suit, such as worn by DIR divers, the suit itself provides no insulation. All insulation in a shell type suit is provided by gas trapped in the undergarment. When the gas is the only insulation, the difference between the properties of air and argon become noticeable. In the study you cite the neoprene suit compromises the validity of the data.


Chris

 

[chickdiver]

I agree with you, and those were also the cautions that I was given from my own tech instructor.

Additionally I was told that argon is such a dense gas that it may become difficult to ultimately expell it from your lungs, and therefore breathing any amount of argon may result in asphyxiation. Not just narcosis, but asphyxiation.

I would think that putting argon into your wing makes no sense at all. And it seems like there is little dissent (maybe only one person) on this.

I would think breathing from your wing would only be feasible in those short moments before death when all of your other gasses were exhausted, and you were still somehow trapped underwater.

And thus, breathing from your wing with argon in it is the worst of all worlds, and a one-way ticket into the next world, as it were.

But I was wondering how Chickdiver as a tech instructor approaches these argon issues with her tech students. She has chimed in on other issues on her own, and she is thus the only tech instructor on this board that I am even remotely familiar with.

My feelings are the same as those described by yourself and Rainer. I've kind of had my hands full at work today, and am just now getting home, so sorry it's taken me a while to respond.

Now, on to the insulating factors of argon:

A little history: Lots of you know I learned mixed gas diving in the WKPP, I also learned the "we inflate drysuits with argon" mantra. I used to get VERY cold, even using argon, on long scootering dives (very little exertion). Then about 5 years ago I started doing a bunch of wreck diving (again), and I fell in with a regular group of dive buddies. Most of these guys never use argon in the suit, even when using high helium mixes. At first I thought they were crazy and they thought I carried too much crap. I finally got brave, and did a dive without argon. Guess what- I noticed very little difference, even when inflating the suit off a backgas of 10/90 heliox. I never use argon for suit inflation these days. I do use a seperate inflation bottle, but it's just air. Oh, and yes, I was using the same drysuit and undergarments (DUI 400G), and in fact THINNER undergarments as before. So... I have discovered some factors that affect my thermal comfort MUCH more than suit inflation gas-

1. fatigue- if I am tired, my little internal furnace doesn't regulate as well.
2. nutrition- I have to eat well, without a good breakfast (usually eggs, toast and fruit- and tea... I cant start the day without tea) I get colder. Same goes for late afternoon dives, a good mix of protien, carbohydrates and fats makes a difference.
3. hydration- I get cold if I am dehydrated
4. physical conditioning- I stay warmer when I put my time in at the gym lifting weights.

Some people swear by the argon (my husband is one), for me.... it's more "voodoo" than anything. If it works for you, great- if it doesn't, don't be afraid to skip it and try some other, more physiologically based solutions.

Heather