Horizontal Ascents...

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I don't think it does. Sorry to jump in like this...I'm new to the list, and one of those recent dir (there, I said it) converts. I ascend horizontally and can still look up. But in the split second or two afer you break the surface, if something is going to suddenly come whizzing along, it ain't gonna matter. The detractors of horizontal ascent seem to be suggesting that somehow one can better predict that point in time. Whether ascending horizontally or vertically, you have to look up and you have to listen. Therefore, I believe the argument that horizontal ascent is inherently unsafe is baseless.:rolleyes:
 
I do honestly believe you won't surface under a boat... really, really! I honestly feel that it is NOT the orientation of the body but the goo in the head that will make ALL of the difference here.

I asked a question early on as to WHY one should ascend horizontally... if you answered that, I am sorry that I missed it. But could you lay on us the Pugster's top ten reasons for a vertical ascent??? And hey, lets open it up to everyone as well, but I want to hear AT LEAST from UP.

And yes, I do believe that "just because I can" is a valid answer. We all need to practice skills... but lay YOURS on us, my friend.
 
Uncle Pug once bubbled...
3. A few hundred tons of boat is not a boat... that is a ship or an exageration. :D
You sent me to the research mode... the captain of these crew boats has to have a "hundred ton" license - but the actual displacement is from about 15 to 100 tons; the boats we're diving are about 40-60 tons. I guess that makes a difference, but for the issue at hand, not much.
Rick
 
Uncle Pug once bubbled...
As far as suggestions to improve your odds...
1) If the ship really is several hundred tons then it should have multiple live boats to retrieve divers who are ascending under dive markers and bring them back to the mother ship.

No, they are boats - big boats but boats (I did err in tonnage - see previous post) - and the life boats are just that, deployed only should the boat itself be in danger of sinking. Tenders have been tried with poor results both actual and economic (customers don't like 'em, will choose the operator that doesn't use 'em).

2) If it were really only an anchored boat then ascending well out in front (up current) and drifting back to the boat would be best. A tag line trailed of the stern with several ball floats isn't a bad idea so that divers can catch that and then move forward toward the stern rather than come alongside the boat.

It's a rare day when you could make a 30 FPM free ascent with a safety stop from the extreme up-current side of the site and not surface a hundred yards or more down-current from the boat. We're talking average currents of about a knot, with depths of 80-100 feet - a drift of a couple hundred yards or more during the ascent is average. We use a three line system - tie-in (anchor) line; "no-swim" line (runs from 15' on the anchor line to the stern); and trail line with float, usually about 150' with another 150' reserve. The tie-in point is determined by its being a good tie-in point, and may or may not leave any site up-current from it.

3) If it is possible the boat should be live and pick the divers up as buddy pairs surface.

Not these boats - too big and unweildy - divers aren't disciplined enough (we're selling to the general public here) to allow spinning props.

4) If conditions were too extreme then it would be better to call the dive off.

When they are, we do. But we've been using these methods safely for years in the conditions we have and they work. There's no need to change 'em, and no need to declare 'em dangerous just because they aren't conducive to a certain procedure - in this case the "horizontal ascent."
5) If the boat due to conditions or skipper inadequacies is cannot handle picking up that number of divers then go with fewer divers.

You wouldn't want to try using these crew boats for live diving if you were the only diver - at least I don't think you would... I wouldn't.

If it were me I would be changing the scenario and not trying to make up for it with a vertical ascent.... not that horizontal is the only way to go mind you... it is just that way you describe as common 'round here sounds far from safe to me.
And here's where I suppose we'll never agree. I do not see any compelling argument for dictating a horizontal ascent in any conditions, and I do see a compelling reason to avoid one in some - no, many conditions. To present the horizontal ascent as "Right" is wrong.
Rick
 
Uncle Pug once bubbled...
I posted a reply to your assertion that the divers in the 5thD video were not ascending in a safe manner. Now you want to switch gears and discuss ascents in your area done the way you do them.
Almost maybe but not quite plumb... All I did was try to provide an example that left no doubt. I still maintain that a "horizontal ascent" to the surface is a bad thing to teach, even though there exist rare instances (Wakulla Springs, for example) where it's ok to not watch (I say "watch" on purpose, not "check") where you're going. If you really, really, really want to stay horizontal for those last few feet, roll over on your back and reserve the over the shoulder check for where you've been rather than for where you're going.
I don't think you'd approach the bottom tank first, would you? Why approach the surface that way?
Horizontal ascents as presented in the video are just a bad idea above the last deco stop.
Rick
 
Rick Murchison once bubbled...
All I did was try to provide an example that left no doubt.
It left no doubt in my mind that you folks get away with what I consider dangerous boat diving practices... at least so far.

It left no doubt that in your situation not only is a horizontal ascent dangerous... any ascent is dangerous.

It left no doubt that your method of debate is bait and switch.

I left no doubt that extreme examples made to prove a general point ultimately prove nothing.

But hey... I love you anyway Rick. :D

And welcome lragsac! Put up a bio in the welcome forum. :D

And I will give you the list when I get back from diving NetDoc. :D
Shane and I are going out to practice horizontal ascents in boat infested waters.... hmmmm..... maybe I should put that list up now in case.... nah.... we'll be back. :D
 
Assume the vis is 50-60' near the surface - pretty normal for around here, and I suspect for a lot of other "boat diving" places as well. (The facts get a LOT worse if the vis is not this good; I'm being nice here!)

Assume that at idle, this dive boat travels at 6mph (~5 knots or so, which is about right for most twin-screw sportfish-style - or dive-style - boats) "Monkey boats" - small vessels - can idle at 1 or 2 knots. Larger boats, particularly diesel ones, DO NOT!

Therefore, this boat travels about 500 feet in a minute.

In six seconds it therefore travels about 50', again, at idle.

There is NO WAY you are going to stop 50,000 lbs (what my boat masses) in 50', and besides, 50' is about its length, which means I'm hosed as you're under the pulpit (and thus invisible) by the time I know I'm about to run you over in that next six seconds. The SHIFT TIME ALONE from one direction to the other for mechanical transmissions is in the 2-3 second range; if the transmissions and throttles are electronically controlled add another second or two for the interlocks and verification that the builders put into the gears to prevent a shift while the engines are at speed. Then add the fact that it takes thrust over time to change a velocity vector; it is NOT instantaneous (boats follow Newton's laws, more or less!) Bluntly: If you're under the pulpit or behind that point while I'm in gear, you're almost unavoidably (both to me and you) chum.

Now, assume that all boats honor your dive flag, and travel at no more than idle speed when within 300' of it (ha!)

Further assume that these boats all draw about 5' (reasonable for a 40ish foot dive boat), and that at some critical distance below that you are inexorably drawn into the propellors if the boat is under way (say, another 2-3'.)

Therefore, if you are in a zone from 7-8' to the surface, you will be drawn into the propellors and killed if you are directly in line with said boat.

The question becomes, can you AVOID this danger as a diver, and is your ascent posture material to your risk.

Reality: AT BEST you will have six seconds of visual warning before you get run over, IF you are looking in the correct direction at the time the danger becomes apparent. Since you don't have eyes in the back of your head, and your peripheral vision is probably no better than 135-150 degrees, the odds of this are at best one in two to one in three. Remember, once you get within the last 40-50' of my screws and in a plane with them, if I'm in gear you're cooked.

Reality: A close encounter with a large vessel's driveline is very likely - probably in the 90%+ range - to cause a fatal injury. Even at idle you are no match for a vessel's driveline. I have run over a forgotten trail line at idle, and the driveline shredded that 10,000+ lb test 3/4" line (it was one of my travelling docklines rated for storm conditions!) like it was butter. I didn't even know I had done it until I tried to get on plane and noticed a significant disparity in speed (due to the line wrapped around the prop and shaft!) It is highly like that if you are run over, other than the sudden appearance of chum behind the boat the operator would be oblivious to what has happened (unless your tank was breached - then he'd definitely know!)

Reality: You will hear the engines of a boat long before you see the boat, but you will be unable to localize the bearing due to the difference in transmission speed of sound underwater. I hear boats from the bottom in 100' of water all the time - I just can't figure out exactly where they are.

Reality: The boat you see directly above you, but moving, is not dangerous, since it moves 50 feet in six seconds and as such will not be where it can chop you up by the time you get there. Ditto for the boat that is directly above you but with the transmissions actually disengaged, even if the engines are running (the danger is not the engines, its the drivelines!) [Side note - many boat's transmissions - including mine - sometimes "creep" when out of gear despite "neutral" being selected - you can get chopped up ascending under a running boat even if it is out of gear! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ascend under a boat that has running engines, even if you KNOW the operator is aware of your presence and will NOT engage the gears! Someone died down here last summer in exactly this manner ascending under a boat and attempting to grab one of the shafts to steady themselves while working on some kind of problem. The driveline crept forward and he was killed by the propellor; the captain never touched the gearshift lever.]

Reality: At a "final" ascent rate of 30fpm from a safety or final deco stop at 15-20', it will take you anywhere from five to eight six-second danger periods to make that final ascent. During the first two to four such periods a boat that approaches will pass over you without doing you harm, except possibly from you soiling your wet or dry suit.

Reality: During the terminal phase of your ascent, the last three to four six-second periods where you are in actual danger, from the time you see the danger you have six seconds to do something about it. It is extremely unlikely that you can both arrest the ascent and get below the danger zone in the intervening six seconds, and this likelihood decreases in direct proportion to (1) how close you are to the surface, and (2) the number of degrees you must rotate your body to swim downward, as there will be no time to attempt to dump air from your BC or use breath control and wait for passive buoyancy effects to help you. At some point before the entire six seconds pass you enter the vortex of the hull and propellors and nothing you do from that point onward matters; you will be shark chum.

There is no valid argument to be made that a "head's up" ascent is "safer" from boat propellor impacts. None. There is likely no argument to be made that your ascent posture is material to the risk of getting run over, unless you're diving in gin-clear water where visibility is in excess of 100', and perhaps even then. I'm not at all certain that even 12 seconds (~100' vis) warning would be material; can you arrest an ascent AND get below 10-12' within six to eight seconds? Maybe, if you're close to 10'. Probably not if you're at 3-4'.

I am well aware that agencies "teach" this "fact" during OW classes, because mine did. I raised the above facts to the instructor, who had little choice to agree with my logic but insisted that she was bound by what was in the almighty manual. I hate false senses of security and thought it was my duty to alert the class that the purported danger was present with or without a "heads up" ascent profile....

The simple fact of the matter is that the vessel operator in a live-boat or drift dive is entirely responsible for knowing where the diver(s) are because the diver(s) have next to no defense against getting hit by a moving surface vessel. The vessel operator can only do this if he can see either a marker or your bubbles. Your only real defense against getting run over is to send up a marker (lift bag, etc) while you are safely below the surface, certainly from at least 20-30', and to ascend on that marker's line. The boat operator's responsibility is to insure that he does not approach the marker (within 100' or so of it) until the divers are ON THE SURFACE and he can ascertain EXACTLY where they are (remember, marker lines are not always completely vertical if there is a surface current!), and once they ARE on the surface he must approach no closer than is safe for the size and type of vessel before disengaging propulsion and, preferrably, shutting down the mains (there is also a potential exhaust gas hazard with boats if the diver(s) remove the regs from their mouths prior to reboarding)
 
Uncle Pug once bubbled...
It left no doubt in my mind that you folks get away with what I consider dangerous boat diving practices... at least so far.

It left no doubt that in your situation not only is a horizontal ascent dangerous... any ascent is dangerous.

Au contraire, mon ami. 'Tis quite safe when done properly. C'mon down; I'll show ye.

It left no doubt that your method of debate is bait and switch.

I left no doubt that extreme examples made to prove a general point ultimately prove nothing.

Excuse me? The first time I saw a horizontal ascent to the surface proposed for open water - open water to me being the "extreme example" of what is common in conditions and practice in the Gulf, where thousands of successful dives off large boats are done every year - I thought "You Have Got to be Kidding Me! - these guys are gonna get somebody killed teaching that!" And I still believe that, and I'll still raise the "Not so fast" flag every time I see it proposed without the "don't try this around big boats" caveat. There is no bait and switch here, no "extreme example" ... I have been consistent from my first post on the subject, and my reasons have remained the same. I invite you to come on down to the Gulf and dive with us off these big boats - you'll have fun, you'll see a lot... and you'll come away realizing that just because a horizontal, belly down ascent is unsafe, there are other ways that are safe.


But hey... I love you anyway Rick. :D

And I you. I think we need to look at Philippians again...

Shane and I are going out to practice horizontal ascents in boat infested waters.... hmmmm..... maybe I should put that list up now in case.... nah.... we'll be back. :D
You scare me, Pug. "Boat infested waters" ain't my idea of fun at all. We have some of that around here, but even dragging a flag we either have our own boat to surface beside with someone aboard to shoo away others or a protected spot where boats don't venture for surfacing. If the concern is a boat underway, how you surface is irrelevant - they must be kept clear of where you surface.
Rick
 
if you are ascending horizonatally and that jerk hits you with his boat your tanks will do a lot more damage than you hand or head and upset him more - but you will probably not be in a position to gloat about that! Your BP may also help!

If going belly up may I recommend scubapro regs - they breath lovely upside down....

Jonathan
 

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