Honest question for you dive masters instructors out there

[Mike2Fst]

Actually Mike I would have been the only one affected because like I said somewhere in the first thread if I had screwed up and entered the water with my air off I would have simply stood up it was a river drift dive with a max depth of 21 feet and an average depth of five feet and I stand 6'2"

I understand all of the residual consequence of a fatal mistake as well as the team approach that a DM should be a part of because I am a PSD who depends on my tender but that is because I trust my tender with my life and I did not trust this DM and because of that I asked him to forgo a fourth valve check when he refused I saw no need to tip him. He did his valve check I did a fifth check and no harsh words were shared until I arrived at SB

sorry but I really don't care if you agree.

A trust issue I understand, he must have done something to send up some red flags, I support you there. I too have come across individuals with whom I didn't want within stones throw of my gear.

 

[nolatom]

Herb, I accept fully that your first question was "real".

This one hovers near being real but fails and falls into the semi-insulting zone, at least as I see it.

Perfectly within your First Amendment rights to ask it, and within the DM's rights to feel insulted.


Why I like the Constitution.

 

[Herb-alaska]

Herb, I accept fully that your first question was "real".

This one hovers near being real but fails and falls into the semi-insulting zone, at least as I see it.

Perfectly within your First Amendment rights to ask it, and within the DM's rights to feel insulted.


Why I like the Constitution.

Actually Tom in hind site it was a stupid way to say if I am to submit to the direction / checks of a DM as the general consensus was I want them to present appearance of competence and if your not able to appear competent I'm not going to tip you

 

[wedivebc]

I was doing a bit of reading regarding this topic with the intention of defending the necessity of the boat crew to check tank valves and have discovered that they actually don't need to do that in the name of due diligence.

[h=3]Skilled defendants (specialists)[/h]Main article: Professional negligence in English Law
The test of an ordinary average person would not be appropriate for defendants that profess or hold themselves out as professing a certain skill. The "man on the Clapham omnibus" does not have that skill and the conduct expected from a skilled professional is not the same as could be expected of an ordinary man in the same circumstances.^[2]The general standard applied to professionals is therefore that of a "reasonable professional", e.g. car mechanic, doctor etc.

The way I interpret that is is a person posses training or expertise beyond that of the average Joe (old English definition = "man on the Clapham omnibus") then the duty of care can be modified to account for that expertise. In other words if a diver holds a cert card for diving a boat captain has no need to check his/her valves as a duty of care obligation.
I may be completely wrong about this but I have watched every Perry Mason rerun.

 

[Wookie]

I was doing a bit of reading regarding this topic with the intention of defending the necessity of the boat crew to check tank valves and have discovered that they actually don't need to do that in the name of due diligence.


The way I interpret that is is a person posses training or expertise beyond that of the average Joe (old English definition = "man on the Clapham omnibus") then the duty of care can be modified to account for that expertise. In other words if a diver holds a cert card for diving a boat captain has no need to check his/her valves as a duty of care obligation.
I may be completely wrong about this but I have watched every Perry Mason rerun.

Heck, I watched him the first time around. That whole standard of care thing is right on the money in a criminal case. Problem is, the big lawsuits don't happen in criminal court, although if you lose there, you're damn sure going to lose the civil case. In a civil case, their expert witness gets to beat up you and your expert witness. If their expert witness says that the standard of care on Caribbean/US dive boats is to check air on, and God Forbid the Captain has told the DM to do it, or worse there is a procedure that requires it (remember, all dive boats are about to get written procedures in accordance with new Coast Guard directives. That's what I'm doing today....), well, then, you just got hosed, because the "jury of your peers" only needs to find you 51% responsible for the widow on the Clapham Onmibus to have a payday at the expense of the insurance company. Negligence is a nasty term....

The Captains who are (to use The Warts term) just bus drivers are about to get a nasty wake up. Coast Guard is requiring all dive boats to develop written procedures for pre-board briefings, safety briefings, emergency procedures, and diving procedures (for assisting divers off and on the boat. Even the Coast Guard realizes we can't control what happens in the water). The bus drivers are about to become captains or hang up their spurs. The Coast Guard is tired of fishing dead divers out of the water because they chose a crappy boat.

 

[Herb-alaska]

Heck, I watched him the first time around. That whole standard of care thing is right on the money in a criminal case. Problem is, the big lawsuits don't happen in criminal court, although if you lose there, you're damn sure going to lose the civil case. In a civil case, their expert witness gets to beat up you and your expert witness. If their expert witness says that the standard of care on Caribbean/US dive boats is to check air on, and God Forbid the Captain has told the DM to do it, or worse there is a procedure that requires it (remember, all dive boats are about to get written procedures in accordance with new Coast Guard directives. That's what I'm doing today....), well, then, you just got hosed, because the "jury of your peers" only needs to find you 51% responsible for the widow on the Clapham Onmibus to have a payday at the expense of the insurance company. Negligence is a nasty term....

The Captains who are (to use The Warts term) just bus drivers are about to get a nasty wake up. Coast Guard is requiring all dive boats to develop written procedures for pre-board briefings, safety briefings, emergency procedures, and diving procedures (for assisting divers off and on the boat. Even the Coast Guard realizes we can't control what happens in the water). The bus drivers are about to become captains or hang up their spurs. The Coast Guard is tired of fishing dead divers out of the water because they chose a crappy boat.

Actually if this directive was In place I never would have started all this mess. I have no problem with authority and I actually enjoy tipi g as a thank you. But not when I feel you don't know what you are talking about and then when you're pushy about it

thanks guys I personally am interested in what the industry feels is the standard of care on a dive boat. Heck even our emts can accept when a person refuses a service. Sign the form and we are on our way
could you not add a paragraph on your release that I initial that says I accept responsibility for my own pre dive check Simply declining an offered service

 

[Wookie]

thanks guys I personally am interested in what the industry feels is the standard of care on a dive boat. Heck even our emts can accept when a person refuses a service. Sign the form and we are on our way
could you not add a paragraph on your release that I initial that says I accept responsibility for my own pre dive check Simply declining an offered service

We also have a refusal of treatment form (Captain thinks you're bent, encourages you to seek medical attention. Diver says "nope, it's a strain, I'm going diving. Very well, sign the form) for those who don't their vacation ruined by a pesky chamber ride. We all already have a paragraph in our release. It says that you release us from our negligence. Covers everything from falling down the dive ladder (we were negligent in that we didn't non-skid properly, or it's too steep, or it's too short, or the hand holds are in the wrong place) to failing to check your air on. See, we CAN treat you like a grown up. The issue is still your wife/widow, who didn't release us from our negligence.

 

[wedivebc]

Actually if this directive was In place I never would have started all this mess. I have no problem with authority and I actually enjoy tipi g as a thank you. But not when I feel you don't know what you are talking about and then when you're pushy about it

thanks guys I personally am interested in what the industry feels is the standard of care on a dive boat. Heck even our emts can accept when a person refuses a service. Sign the form and we are on our way
could you not add a paragraph on your release that I initial that says I accept responsibility for my own pre dive check Simply declining an offered service

So would you really go through the hassle of filling out a refusal of valve check form rather than just give the DM the nod then recheck it yourself afterward?

 

[Herb-alaska]

So would you really go through the hassle of filling out a refusal of valve check form rather than just give the DM the nod then recheck it yourself afterward?

If I did not know you and if it was done when I was already absolving you of all liability at the start of the trip. Yup one more initial just like when I rent a car and say no thanks to the added ins
after I knew and trusted you then I would tip extra for the service

Just give me the choice

 

[agilis]

The issue is still your wife/widow, who didn't release us from our negligence.[/QUOTE]

Also your minor children. Courts have held that your waiver does not and could never apply to them. I saw a dive shop here in NJ driven bankrupt and closed despite the dead diver's waiver, based on a suit brought by the diver's spouse in the name of the children. They were awarded serious money because he was a young professional. He drowned in a small inlet, about 8 feet of water. My recollection is that he was found tangled in the remains of an old RR bridge that he was not supposed to go near. It appears that fishing lines and a strong current at the narrow bottleneck under the bridge pulled the regulator out of his mouth. He was on his certification open water checkout. Visibility there is limited. It can take only seconds for a panicked new diver to die in that kind of situation.