Holding a panicked diver down

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't know of any training that states hold the panic diver down.

... nor is there any training that states not to ... that's a complete non sequitur.

Diving is situational ... responses in any emergency also require judgement, which is something you can't learn in a class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Chavodel8en]

Just remember, in any rescue the first priority is to not make another victim. That only complicates any rescue.

Honestly, unless the diver is a close family member, I doubt I would even try to hold or slow a truly panicking diver already heading to the surface, completely because of self-preservation. (i understand that instructors may feel more responsibility). Of course if I could head off the panic, thats a different story. But FYI for all my future buddies, the most I will likely do is pray for you.

Maybe if I had a secure grip on something to ensure I wouldnt go up with them, but given the scenarios, thats not likely.

 

[nimoh]

... nor is there any training that states not to ... that's a complete non sequitur.

Diving is situational ... responses in any emergency also require judgement, which is something you can't learn in a class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I can definitely agree with that.

When thinking about this question, I was envisioning a scenario where holding them down would do more harm than good. Perhaps their reg broke on a 30' dive, and instead of going for an alternate, they decided to do a CESA. I think interrupting a CESA would probably do more harm than good on that dive. Although if the dive profile had possible deco obligations when you are sure that they will be dead on the surface, perhaps it is better to risk interrupting the CESA and give them a chance.

My point is just that I don't think there is a hard rule as to whether to grab the diver or let them go, it is a judgement call based on a specific situation.

 

[ajduplessis]

@Bob

Quote "I'd willingly put my life on the line if I thought doing so would reduce the risk of one of my students ending up dead."


Now the rest have to deal with a double fatality because you are will to take life threating risk to possible reduce another?? In what training do they teach you that? Or is this another "non sequitur" statement?

 

[antattack]

Great opportunity to think through this in a structured way. Just saying "it's situational" leaves me wanting more planning, so here goes:

My job as a buddy, is to be your buddy. To share resources if necessary, to work out problems with you if they occur, to comfort and help you enjoy our dive. As a buddy, my job does not include risking my life if you panic. I'll comfort you, share resources and even work out problems under water. But if you are hell bent on getting to the surface, I'll try to help you do the right thing, but I won't hold you down.

My job as a dive master could be a number of different things, depending on why you have me as a dive master:

If I'm escorting you on a pleasure dive, my role as your DM is to be a buddy whose responsability is to manage the dive plan and apply specific knowledge of the dive for your benefit. My approach is the same as being your buddy, except I'm responsible for the dive plan. I'll sort out problems and prevent you from panic as best I can, but I will not restrain you if you do panic. I'll make a safe ascent with any other divers and then rescue you.

If I'm helping with a class, my job is to make sure you get the most out of class safely. 'm watching, I know that you
a.) Aren't even aware that you have lost control
b.) Just realized and are surprised
c.) Big eyes and are starting to panic
d.) Are experiencing a full on panic

If you are A. B. or C. I'll take control, make you aware of what is going on and calm you down. If you are already heading to the surface because you lost control... I'll get behind you and ride your tank like a pony while I get control of your BCD. You aren't going anywhere and you are going to know that someone is there to help you.

But,

If you are D., in a full panic, and I have responsibilities to other divers. I'm back to buddy mode for you- at least until I hand off my other divers to an instructor or another DM. Then I'll make a safe ascent and rescue you.

If you are D., in a full panic and you are my only diver the instructor has the ball if the instructor is aware, if not I'll work with you to try to manage a safe ascent, but not at the expense of my safety. If you reject all help and are headed to the surface, I've probably slowed you down trying to help, and you are headed up anyway. I'll back off, let the team know that I'm making a safe ascent and a rescue and proceed to rescue you.

I think that's my plan. Any errors there dive community? If not, I'll formalize with the instructors I work with.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

@Bob

Quote "I'd willingly put my life on the line if I thought doing so would reduce the risk of one of my students ending up dead."


Now the rest have to deal with a double fatality because you are will to take life threating risk to possible reduce another?? In what training do they teach you that? Or is this another "non sequitur" statement?

... or you have to deal with no fatality at all because I had the ability to deal with the problem in a way that avoided one. Any time an instructor gets in the water with a student you are taking a risk ... what reduces the risk are skills and judgement. Experience helps you recognize the onset of a problem and manage the potential consequences. When faced with a risk to a student, I see that as a shared risk where I'm the one with the most available resources. If I'm unwilling to share the risk, I shouldn't be taking that person underwater.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added March 25th, 2013 at 12:57 PM ----------

Great opportunity to think through this in a structured way. Just saying "it's situational" leaves me wanting more planning, so here goes:

My job as a buddy, is to be your buddy. To share resources if necessary, to work out problems with you if they occur, to comfort and help you enjoy our dive. As a buddy, my job does not include risking my life if you panic. I'll comfort you, share resources and even work out problems under water. But if you are hell bent on getting to the surface, I'll try to help you do the right thing, but I won't hold you down.

My job as a dive master could be a number of different things, depending on why you have me as a dive master:

If I'm escorting you on a pleasure dive, my role as your DM is to be a buddy whose responsability is to manage the dive plan and apply specific knowledge of the dive for your benefit. My approach is the same as being your buddy, except I'm responsible for the dive plan. I'll sort out problems and prevent you from panic as best I can, but I will not restrain you if you do panic. I'll make a safe ascent with any other divers and then rescue you.

If I'm helping with a class, my job is to make sure you get the most out of class safely. 'm watching, I know that you
a.) Aren't even aware that you have lost control
b.) Just realized and are surprised
c.) Big eyes and are starting to panic
d.) Are experiencing a full on panic

If you are A. B. or C. I'll take control, make you aware of what is going on and calm you down. If you are already heading to the surface because you lost control... I'll get behind you and ride your tank like a pony while I get control of your BCD. You aren't going anywhere and you are going to know that someone is there to help you.

But,

If you are D., in a full panic, and I have responsibilities to other divers. I'm back to buddy mode for you- at least until I hand off my other divers to an instructor or another DM. Then I'll make a safe ascent and rescue you.

If you are D., in a full panic and you are my only diver the instructor has the ball if the instructor is aware, if not I'll work with you to try to manage a safe ascent, but not at the expense of my safety. If you reject all help and are headed to the surface, I've probably slowed you down trying to help, and you are headed up anyway. I'll back off, let the team know that I'm making a safe ascent and a rescue and proceed to rescue you.

I think that's my plan. Any errors there dive community? If not, I'll formalize with the instructors I work with.

... and this is one of the significant differences between DM and instructor. When an instructor takes a student underwater they are directly responsible for being in control of that student, and intervening if that student does something potentially life-threatening. It's part of the job. Not acting can be viewed as negligence ... and if you choose not to act, you'd better have a better reason than not wanting to assume risk to your own well-being.

Understand that in your plan you're accepting the possibility that by the time you reach the surface a rescue may not be necessary ... but a body recovery might be ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added March 25th, 2013 at 01:03 PM ----------

My point is just that I don't think there is a hard rule as to whether to grab the diver or let them go, it is a judgement call based on a specific situation.

... this is worth repeating ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diver0001]

... or you have to deal with no fatality at all because I had the ability to deal with the problem in a way that avoided one.

There's still a lot of black and white thinking going on in this thread. The reality is, there is a whole range of options available during but also, and especially *before* things get pear shaped that an experienced diver/instructor will use.

Bob is absolutely right. Prevention isn't only possible (and infinitely better than mopping up a mess) but it's every instructor's "plan-A".

In my opinion (and experience) good instructors seldom see students panicking. Proper training is intended and designed to avoid it. I'm sure Bob would agree.

what reduces the risk are skills and judgement.

Speaking of judgement, I think the recent posts in this thread do prove that there are buddies who will leave you twisting in the wind when you need them most. Aside from skills and judgement, teamwork is also a key element of safety. It's astounding how many accidents involve buddy separation.

R..

 

[TSandM]

In the four years Peter has been teaching, we have been lucky enough to have no active panics -- just one passive one (which was weird enough). I do believe that good preparation makes panic less likely, but remembering my own near-bolt experience in OW, you can't control everything that happens to students. Somebody is going to kick them in the face, or they're going to choke on salt water, or lose a reg . . . the best you can hope is that they will remember their training and respond calmly, and it appears that most of them do. I do set myself above and slightly behind students who are doing what I think are at-risk skills, like mask clearing, so that, if they DO bolt, they have to go through me to get to the surface.

I can certainly envision situations where somebody would be trying to get up as fast as possible because they NEEDED to -- someone having an MI, or pulmonary edema, would be an example. But the one case I know where somebody almost certainly was having a medical issue underwater, what killed him was a gas embolism.

 

[ajduplessis]

There's still a lot of black and white thinking going on in this thread. The reality is, there is a whole range of options available during but also, and especially *before* things get pear shaped that an experienced diver/instructor will use.
R..

Can you please elobrate on the whole range of options availible when things go pear shape? I think there is a lot us non-instructors can learn from this. Thanks

 

[redacted]

While holding him down may be the right answer in some situations, I keep thinking assaults, unlawful restraint, and even manslaughter. Do you really think PADI will protect you?