This is what I am wondering. Everybody is on their high horse assuming people making an out of control ascent is holding their breath. In all likelyhood I doubt most of them do because it's just not a natural reaction to hold air in as you rise. Everybody is trying to stop AGE because of a breath holding incident when people may be darting to the surface becuase they have a mouth full of water. Regardless of why somebody is bolting to the surface, if you don't know why, you should at least try to figure out if they are breathing/don't have a mouth full of water before you stop them. AGE from a breath holding incident is a theory that may or may not happen to that particular person as you have no idea if they are holding their breath -- you are just making a wild guess. Holding somebody down in the water without knowing their breathing state is basically drowning them. AGE seems to be pretty uncommon from the stats and there are plenty of out of control ascents. I lost a flipper at 140ft. Tried to fin up but couldn't get much further than 130ft without A LOT of trouble. Put a little too much air in the BCD to compensate, my dump valves didn't seem to work, and I took a ride to the surface. Classic case for DCS but no problem -- I was letting my air out of my lungs. Had I had a mouthful of water and somebody stopped my ride, I would have drowned. Don't just hold people underwater unless you have a guess why they are bolting.
Holding a panicked diver down
- Thread starter brnt999
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
In fact, it's very easy to see if someone is holding their breath. It's a matter of being alert for it.
True, not all uncontrolled ascents or even all panic ascents involve breath holding. I don't think anyone has made this assertion up to now.
Well... you're right about one thing; these kinds of threads are prone to a high degree of "tin foil hattery", just because most people (thankfully) don't have much experience with dealing with the issue we're discussing. It leads to a lot of "what ifs" and scenario building and ultimately we prove time and again that there's always a possible scenario where you could do the wrong thing.
If these kinds of threads prove one thing, it's that black-and-white thinking breaks down easily and that some issues can't be solved with a "one size fits all" solution. Thinking on your feet, being flexible and making a judgement call to the best of your ability is pretty much all you can do to respond to certain things.
R..
Slow down, not hold down. I've taken the ride twice. When you see the eyes go big as saucers and the legs flex, it's time to grab on to anything you can get and slow the panicked ascent.
Students have told me how re-assured they were that I had my hand at their chest strap during certain skills. What they didn't know was that I was being ready in case they try to bolt. Or, was I really trying to re-assure them? Hmmm. Works either way.
Students have told me how re-assured they were that I had my hand at their chest strap during certain skills. What they didn't know was that I was being ready in case they try to bolt. Or, was I really trying to re-assure them? Hmmm. Works either way.
PeterNBiddle
Contributor
On a related note:
When we took our lifeguard test our teacher brought in the local college wrestling team and told them to be non-compliant. I had to stuff my guy under the water more than once.
Generally speaking if you are behind someone and have control of their head or shoulders, you have control. Water and air are just more tools to use to impose your will.
When we took our lifeguard test our teacher brought in the local college wrestling team and told them to be non-compliant. I had to stuff my guy under the water more than once.
Generally speaking if you are behind someone and have control of their head or shoulders, you have control. Water and air are just more tools to use to impose your will.
In all seriousness, could you tell the difference between a person holding their breath and a person who has exhaled all their breath, no longer has air in their lungs (at that depth anyway), and is trying to make it to the surface without inhaling water?
Whether the person has a reg in their mouth and isn't breathing, or has no reg, they are holding their breath. If they aren't, periodically bubbles will come out . . .
I have done an uncontrolled ascent from 70 feet without harm. I couldn't get control, but I kept breathing. I was not panicked. I have also ridden a student from 50 feet to the surface, doing everything I could to slow her down. She wasn't panicked -- she lost control of her dry suit.
Short of having time to look at their gauge, I don't think you could tell with certainty whether someone is out of gas and bolting, or panicked and bolting, or both. I'm still going to try to slow someone down -- again, you can fix drowning. You can't fix AGE.
I have done an uncontrolled ascent from 70 feet without harm. I couldn't get control, but I kept breathing. I was not panicked. I have also ridden a student from 50 feet to the surface, doing everything I could to slow her down. She wasn't panicked -- she lost control of her dry suit.
Short of having time to look at their gauge, I don't think you could tell with certainty whether someone is out of gas and bolting, or panicked and bolting, or both. I'm still going to try to slow someone down -- again, you can fix drowning. You can't fix AGE.
- Messages
- 99,741
- Reaction score
- 102,595
- Location
- On the Fun Side of Trump's Wall
- # of dives
- 2500 - 4999
Yes ... stick a regulator in their face. If it's the latter, they'll take it ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
dfx
Contributor
A few months ago, we were on a boat together with a guy doing a DSD dive. He said he was a paramedic, I think from Florida. He told us that each and every year, they get called to people's backyard pools several times, because some divers thought they had to privately show or teach other non-divers scuba diving in the pool, when something went wrong and they ended up with AGEs. I don't think dismissing it as "uncommon" is a good solution. Assuming that a bolting diver is holding their breath can be just as dangerous as assuming that they are not.
dumpsterDiver
Banned
- Messages
- 9,003
- Reaction score
- 4,660
- # of dives
- 2500 - 4999
Well if they are not ascending and they fully exhaled, and a diver were trying to hold them down until they see bubbles... that wouldn't work. I know you said you would try to SLOW an ascent and that is the right thing to do, but if they spit the reg (and won't take one) they need to get the surface as fast as is "safe" and the fact of the matter is that the rescuer is really NOT going to know what is going on with the lungs of the victim. I think the answer to the situation is to try to shove a working reg into their mouth and try to slow their ascent to the top to some reasonable rate, but there really is not much more that can be expected or known about the victim.
- Messages
- 99,741
- Reaction score
- 102,595
- Location
- On the Fun Side of Trump's Wall
- # of dives
- 2500 - 4999
I think so too ... even a panicked diver will accept a reg shoved in their face if they need air badly enough. The problem with a diver who has full lungs and isn't exhaling is that their need to breathe hasn't kicked in yet, and so getting to the surface is their ultimate priority. Panic is an instinctive response ... so is breathing. If the need to breathe is the priority, they'll do whatever it takes to satisfy the need. Make the "whatever it takes" as visible and easy as possible.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Similar threads
