Holding a panicked diver down

[brnt999]

I have read a few incidents of divers holding a panicked diver down to prevent them from DCS or a pulminary baratroma. I read about a few incidents on the Dan site about divers holding a panicked diver down and the diver drowned. I read of a recent incident where an instructor held a panicked student down and she suffered for it. If a panicked diver is out of air and racing for the surface it seems kind of stupid to hold them down to face the certainty of drowning over the possibility of DCS or a PB.

I can see many dangers with holding a panicked diver with air down. For one they may freak out and spit out there regulator and drown.

Is it ever a good idea to hold a panicked diver down?

 

[Steve_C]

Depends some on circumstances. Are they panicking or panicked? If they are starting to go into panic perhaps you can calm then down. Was leading two "experienced but had not dove much lately divers" in the keys. One had major mask issues and his mask flooded. Got the big eyes and started to reach for his weights to release them. I put my hand on his and stopped the release and the bolt to the surface and was able to calm him down. But this was a case where he was just starting to panic. I was also able to be a little lower than him to reduce chance he would grab me. Note this was not a case of me holding down. I just made him hesitate. Took him back to surface and boat. He returned a bit later and we completed the dive. But if they are in full blown panic and heading up generally i would let them go and follow at a safe rate.

 

[raftingtigger]

I'm just a non-practicing DM, but I would never hold a panicking diver down. I would do what I could to calm them and if necessary slow their ascent rate. If they didn't appear to be exhaling I might even "punch them in the stomach" to get them to exhale (OK, I was trained eons ago) :blinking:.

Holding them down is just asking for them to inhale water and drown. I can also see where holding them down could result in wrongful death charges (not even close to being a lawyer). However, getting them to pause (to think) or slowing the ascent has the potential to be very helpful. Just remember, in any rescue the first priority is to not make another victim. That only complicates any rescue.

 

[Tigerman]

Im not a professional but I actually HAVE held a panicking diver down. It beats the crap out of people surfacing into a propeller..
The key word here is PANICKING though. If hed been in full panic mode, I might not have been able to keep him down.
We all got up safe, we all learned something, all of us (except the "panickee") got to do a 2nd dive..

 

[spectrum]

Scenario dependedent. I think a disctinction needs to be made between "panic" and "distressed and making a bad decision".

The divers and situation all play into what one might do. The "don't make yourself the other victim," rule certainly plays a heavy role in the decision.

When in any doubt, let them go.

Pete

 

[DevonDiver]

Here's how I do/teach it:

1) Make contact with the ascending diver's BCD.
2) Wrap legs around their lower legs (below knee) with a figure-4 lock to immobilize them. (Google this - it's a wrestling/jiu-jitsu principle).
3) Move hands up their torso and take control of the LPI - dump air to arrest ascent.

This works for smaller divers, controlling bigger ones.

It assumes two primary means of ascent: Fining and BCD inflation. The leg lock prevents the diver from fining with any significant power. LPI controls buoyancy.

 

[redacted]

Here's how I do/teach it:

1) Make contact with the ascending diver's BCD.
2) Wrap legs around their lower legs (below knee) with a figure-4 lock to immobilize them. (Google this - it's a wrestling/jiu-jitsu principle).
3) Move hands up their torso and take control of the LPI - dump air to arrest ascent.

This works for smaller divers, controlling bigger ones.

It assumes two primary means of ascent: Fining and BCD inflation. The leg lock prevents the diver from fining with any significant power. LPI controls buoyancy.

How does that differ from an assault?

 

[brnt999]

Here's how I do/teach it:

1) Make contact with the ascending diver's BCD.
2) Wrap legs around their lower legs (below knee) with a figure-4 lock to immobilize them. (Google this - it's a wrestling/jiu-jitsu principle).
3) Move hands up their torso and take control of the LPI - dump air to arrest ascent.

This works for smaller divers, controlling bigger ones.

It assumes two primary means of ascent: Fining and BCD inflation. The leg lock prevents the diver from fining with any significant power. LPI controls buoyancy.

If I was fighting for my life and you did that to me I would be inclined to punch, kick, claw--do whatever I needed to do to get away. If I drowned I would sue you. (ha ha)

 

[t4e]

Here's how I do/teach it:

1) Make contact with the ascending diver's BCD.
2) Wrap legs around their lower legs (below knee) with a figure-4 lock to immobilize them. (Google this - it's a wrestling/jiu-jitsu principle).
3) Move hands up their torso and take control of the LPI - dump air to arrest ascent.

This works for smaller divers, controlling bigger ones.

It assumes two primary means of ascent: Fining and BCD inflation. The leg lock prevents the diver from fining with any significant power. LPI controls buoyancy.

how do you keep them from punching you in the face or yanking you regulator out or knocking your mask off?

i ask because that is what I would do if you held me down

 

[Diver0001]

Is it ever a good idea to hold a panicked diver down?

This is definitely a case where an ounce of prevention outweighs a pound of cure. The way I teach, I try to go for 10 tonnes of prevention just because I have enough grey hairs already.

I think what you need to do depends to a great extent on what's happening. When someone is really panicking, the last thing *you* need to do is lose your cool too.

I don't think there's a really good "rule" about how to deal with it. What I *prefer* to do if possible is to somehow convince the diver to stay down, fight through it and get it under control themselves (possibly with help). Generally this is better for the diver's self confidence than bolting to the surface, especially when we're talking about students. In most cases this is possible if you're on top of it early on. One of the things that you develop from teaching is a huge radar for problems and I've noticed that if you're alert that you can normally see it coming and intervene on time. I think instructors who see a lot of students panicking/bolting are probably more concerned with getting things done than they are with observing how their students are responding to the exercises. At least, that's what I've noticed over the years.

In the couple of cases of real "blind" panic I've seen to date, getting through to them just isn't going to happen. In that case my experience has been that it's better to grab on, try to slow and control their ascent and to make sure they're breathing. If they're holding their breath then it's time to poke them in the belly (or where ever it will snap them out of it) to get them to breathe again. Holding them down has the function, provided they haven't spit out the regulator, of giving the body enough time that holding ones breath isn't feasible and they start breathing again automatically. Hence the advice to hold them down.

Either way panic is very dangerous. Literally everyone has a breaking point, in my opinion. Having an idea of how to tackle and handle a diver in panic might be a good idea but it's a much MUCH better idea to put effort into developing a "problem radar" so you never get to that point.

Tip #1 in avoiding panic.... stay within your comfort zone and go slow... then slow down some more. Like I said, hurrying and/or doing too much too soon seems to be the #1 cause of the problems that lead people to panic.

R..

---------- Post added March 24th, 2013 at 01:42 AM ----------

how do you keep them from punching you in the face or yanking you regulator out or knocking your mask off?

i ask because that is what I would do if you held me down

If we're talking about a diver in blind panic, they don't even seem to notice you.... and if they do then, from the few experiences I've had, they seem to have some sense that you're trying to help them and they'll let you grab on without fighting back, especially if they trust you already.

It might be a different story if you had to tackle a stranger but I've never had to do that.

R..