Hog and DIR gear configurations not welcome :-(

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I did do the class in a BP&W. I ardently refuse to wear any other bc because I do not fit correctly in any other type i've ever tried(I have an extremely long torso, and can really only get something with a crotch strap that is not dependent on torso placement to fit), and consider it more of a risk than I'm willing to take. I will not do something I consider unsafe for the conditions for anyone....period.

I'm a little amazed at the can of worms I opened.

To training: No I have never had formal training in the use of a long hose or BP&W. I do not see where either require any particularly specialized training to use sufficiently, though practice in any air sharing drill is very important, as the concept is not difficult. I did spend significant time in the pool with the long hose before I ever took it into open water, and would not have taken it on a dive unless I was 100% confident of my ability to deploy it and re-stow it. I also asked my fire department dive partners to practice with me, so they would at least understand what I would/would not be doing in the event of an air sharing drill. I have logged something like 6 hours of pool time and about 25 dives using this configuration, as well as two search and recovery(not of casualties thank God) deployments with the fire department, and have even deployed it from 100ft in Cozumel for an air sharing/assent exercise for a "deep" specialty the shop I was with offered for almost nothing. After using both methods, I do not feel comfortable in open water with a low clipped octo on, nor the hug wind loops sticking out from my head from "short" hoses. GUE or UTD classes are in my future, but my own physical fitness and dive experience levels need to come up a good bit before I do either. I am most definitely not a paragon of diving, but am working to better myself and my knowledge, and see the hogarthian system, and to a similar extent the concepts laid down by DIR, as a segue into putting my abilities on a better, and safer level. It's kind of ironic that I'm moving towards DIR and hogarthian configurations, but will spend 50% or more of my in water time in a very "un hogarthian" full face mask. The one are I have found where DIR and Hogarthian ideal don't always work to there full extent....crawling on your belly, in the mud, finger searching for a body or weapon!

I will offer some input on the "all gear should be the same" argument side, from a purely anecdotal standpoint:

When first asked to conduct an air sharing drill this weekend, I was still carrying my octo on a necklace, simply using a shorter hose on my primary. I, by habit and practice, when asked to share air, removed my primary, picked up my secondary, and offered the primary to the other diver. This utterly confused him to the point I didn't think he would take it at first. We where asked to make an ascent sharing air while grasping each other bc, again, the lack of large straps and padding utterly confused him, and he had difficulty with the skill. This was NOT a bad diver. He was approaching 100 logged dives, and I would have considered him a reasonable candidate for a dive buddy in a basic "rec" dive. Quite simply, he had never seen someone do it that way, and was not particularly equipped with a knowledge basis to deal with an alternative to the "standard".

The argument can be made "but, how many times do you see a hogarthian diver"....the answer is not often. However, my observation is that primary donate IS becoming more common with the AIR 2 style system coming into popularity. You do not have time to "figure it out" in the water, you're already going to be forced to delay the contact with EMS for a period( from a 911 dispatchers standpoint, delays are bad, because there are delays on our end as well....), fiddling with a new gear configuration you've never seen, while trying to solo tow an unresponsive in giving rescue breath, after surfacing from 80ft, is a bad time to learn.....


That was one of my biggest disappointments in this class, that it mainly focused on surface rescue, and that more variables were not discussed. I realize the class is not a true search and rescue scenario, but I find it disheartening that some of this was not taught in OW, leaving more time for more advanced topics later.


I'm NOT knocking the guys I took this class from btw. I consider them friends, and good divers. I will probably dive with them and buy gear from them again(they are doing my fire department VERY right on gear and training), and they're fun folks to be around. I want that clear in case they read this, or someone figures it out and goes and tattles. Big difference in philosophical debate and bashing someone.
 
. GUE or UTD classes are in my future, but my own physical fitness and dive experience levels need to come up a good bit before I do either. I am most definitely not a paragon of diving, but am working to better myself and my knowledge, and see the hogarthian system, and to a similar extent the concepts laid down by DIR, as a segue into putting my abilities on a better, and safer level. It's kind of ironic that I'm moving towards DIR and hogarthian configurations, but will spend 50% or more of my in water time in a very "un hogarthian" full face mask. The one are I have found where DIR and Hogarthian ideal don't always work to there full extent....crawling on your belly, in the mud, finger searching for a body or weapon!

I hope you realize that although there is a lot of overlap between the terms "Hogarthian" and "DIR," they are not the same thing. You can learn this sort of thing from a variety of other agencies. The others will not be perfectly DIR in their approach, but you may be surprised at how minor the differences are, and the average untutored bystander will not know the difference.
 
When first asked to conduct an air sharing drill this weekend, I was still carrying my octo on a necklace, simply using a shorter hose on my primary. I, by habit and practice, when asked to share air, removed my primary, picked up my secondary, and offered the primary to the other diver. This utterly confused him to the point I didn't think he would take it at first. We where asked to make an ascent sharing air while grasping each other bc, again, the lack of large straps and padding utterly confused him, and he had difficulty with the skill. This was NOT a bad diver. He was approaching 100 logged dives, and I would have considered him a reasonable candidate for a dive buddy in a basic "rec" dive. Quite simply, he had never seen someone do it that way, and was not particularly equipped with a knowledge basis to deal with an alternative to the "standard".

If you were diving rec, this is the kind of thing you should be covering in a buddy briefing / dive planning conversation.

Good post.
 
Humor noted. However I did not mean to infer I was diving the gear without instruction. In the next month I am adding seven foot hoses to both of our rigs...and I dive a back inflate. But neither element demands DIR/ HOG training per se. Our rigs will transition as we transition through classes. But we do agree...a tech level rescue class would certainly be worthwhile...and I think jahjahwarrior would be just the person to write the curriculum.
 
If you were diving rec, this is the kind of thing you should be covering in a buddy briefing / dive planning conversation.


That's fine if you're rescuing your buddy, but what if you come up on someone floating, below or above, and you're confused about there gear? or better yet you're on a fairly deep recreational dive, and are asked for air by some victim of an insta buddy who vanished? The only time I've actually needed to share air was a diver who's buddy went "poof" and was off doing his own thing. She approached me quickly, tapped her gauge, and showed my 250psi and falling(combination of a leaking oring that was not noticed at the surface, and her being severely overweighted and sucking air like a hoover....). She was mildly panicked, but once we got her on my regs we found the dm(who was carrying a largish pony....possibly a 60, I'm not sure now, this was my 6th or seventh ow dive....)and her buddy, and surfaced.

boulder- I'm still analyzing my options. I've found my attitudes towards diving are changing, and I'm not sure if I will follow the path all the way to DIR, or stay with one of the slightly more "liberal" agencies :wink:(just a joke), but have through study, and some experience, found some things I will and will not do because they're not as safe as they can be. My own life experience is guiding how I want to handle myself in the water right now. I literally deal with life and death every day(I answer 911 for a living), and am determined to, while having fun, take on the challenge of being as absolutely safe and prepared as possible. Mr. Murphy will jump up at the most random and unexpected times, even for the prepared....

---------- Post added May 6th, 2012 at 05:14 PM ----------

BTW, I appreciate the input and discussion here, and the fact it has stayed civil. Y'all made sure through this forum, from the middle of my OW class in costa rica on, that I've had access to more than just my LDS's opinion.
 
That's fine if you're rescuing your buddy, but what if you come up on someone floating, below or above, and you're confused about there gear? or better yet you're on a fairly deep recreational dive, and are asked for air by some victim of an insta buddy who vanished?

To be clear, I am not at all poking at you, just making an observation. I agree with your position.

The problem is close minded instructors (of whatever persuasion) who choke at the sight of gear different than their own and pass that on to their students rather than prepare them to problem solve and expose them, where practical, to different approaches.

I use a BCD, my son a BP/W. He was comfortable in it the first time he put it on. I would have no issue dealing with his rig. Unsure where to find a regulator? Start at the tank and follow the hoses. Need to release the rig? If you can't find a buckle, use your knife. If an insta-buddy can't figure out where to find my secondary, I can always hold it out to him.

I am far from the most proficient, skilled diver out there. I have to say though that IMO I have learned enough in my 23 dives to date to do this basic problem solving. If you stay calm it is easy. If you panic quite frankly it doesn't matter what your configuration, you'll struggle.
 
This is silly, who is actually not going to be able to find things on another divers rig? If you can seriously look me in the eye and say that because I am geared out Hog style, I will not be able to air share? I wont be able to donate a reg or grab one from another diver. That is ridiculous. You know, I have never seen under the hood of a Bentley, but I am pretty sure I could change the oil or get a boost if my or my buddys life depended on it.

That is why we learn the basic skills folks

If you cannot figure out where my gear is on my bpw setup, I certainly do not want you in the water anywhere near me, and you probably dont have the intelligence to be diving anyways
 
I will say that if you've never been in a true life and death situation, it's hard to explain to someone why familiarization is so important. That's why we repeat the skills over and over again. Decisions that may take you 10 seconds on the surface, can take 30-40 in an emergency, and when emergencies arise a second is an eternity. Things that seem logical, become nightmares. What we do by practicing these kinds of things, is to make certain that, under that kind of pressure, we do the necessities by memory, and focus on the emergency in hand. Unfamiliar equipment, no matter how silly it seems in a dry room, is a difficult thing to overcome in any rescue, be it diving, racing, or anything else.


Even the best officer and dispatcher , hell even the best soldier, will start to panic under enough stress. What keeps us alive, sane, and able to render the aid necessary to keep others alive, is the training and repetition that allows us to process an overall scheme, while performing the details necessary to provide that service. Dive safety,rescue, and training should be viewed in the same way in my opinion...Learn the details while you're safe, so when danger comes, there is no "what do i do", only action that puts YOU and the person you're saving at the least risk for the best possible outcome.

The longest thirty seconds of your life is the first time you realize you have 15 second to make a decision, 15 to implement it, and the decision you make means someone lives or dies.

This concept is one of the reason I like the HOG mentality about equipment...the least crap possible, with the important parts in the same place.
 
I've seen the way some divers treat their backup octo regulator.

No thank you, please give me your primary instead! I'm all for the long hose. :D
 
It's a real damn shame some people are so closed minded about this. I can not understand any class that says "You have to participate in this type of gear ONLY", unless they are specifically teaching that type of gear or dive style. This coming from instructors of agencies that ALLOW really any style at all.
 
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