I don’t think the TiZip and YKK use the same technique in manufacturing. I hope this is the right type of YKK zipper. My TiZip has been great
History of YKK plastic dry suit zipper problems?
- Thread starter Kimmeridgien
- Start date
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OP
Kimmeridgien
Registered
Thank you all and please excuse my long delay in responding.
While there doesn't seem to have been systematic problems with the YKK plastic zipper, there most definitely is room for improvement in the advice on care and maintenance (not from YKK's side but from some manufacturers):
I'll try to sum up my findings:
According to Josh Hawthorn at YKK UK/Sweden, the YKK teeth are injection molded onto the sealing ribbon. If I understood him right, there have been successive improvements to the YKK plastic zipper. Compared to my damaged zipper (manufactured 2016), there seems to now be a different production process. Also, if I understood him right, especially in the last two years the process seems to be very good. He reported the zipper's serial number and the photo I posted first in this thread in a support ticket to their quality department, but there doesn't seem to have been general quality issues with my zipper's batch. All in all, my experience from YKK UK (when calling them) is very good. I was handled with interest and professionalism. (But they still haven't responded to the message I first sent through their web contact form...)
Josh also brought my attention to YKK's technical support web page for the Aquaseal zipper:
AQUASEAL ® | Technical Support/water-protective/support/aquaseal/
"Please see the instructions below for each zipper type.
For the W-seal (Closed-end) application,
1. Apply the lubricant to the top-seal as indicated in the diagram.
2. Apply a small amount of paraffin wax along the zipper elements.
For Single-seal or Open-end applications,
1. Apply paraffin wax along the zipper elements.
*Do not directly apply the lubricant on the zipper’s elements"
AQUASEAL ® | Technical Support/water-protective/support/aquaseal/
"Please do not fold or bend the zippers when they are stored.
Please do not store the garment/goods under the circumstances where it will be over 60°C (140°F).
Store with the zipper completely closed, taking care not to bend it. The storage in an opened position for long period will cause zipper bending.
If this occurs, slight leaks are possible."
Finally, YKK told me that the metal zipper is their preferred choice for a diving dry suit.
---
I also talked to three people at Ursuit throughout this affair, in particular Tommi Ahonen and Mattias Vendlegård in the sales organization for Sweden. They too took a serious interest in my case and answered my questions kindly and without nonsense.
As I have previously emphasized, the Ursuit Softdura is a very fine suit that I strongly recommend. However, in my opinion, Ursuit is under-performing in instructions for care and maintenance. Or perhaps they simply didn't bother to add information about the plastic zipper, so the original advice for metal zippers is what's still published. Here's the full quote from their service web page:
Servicing · Ursuit
"How to extend the life of your dry suit
You have just made a great dive, and now you are outside from the water, already thinking about the next step, taking a coffee or a drink in the next bar, or driving straight home. Last thing you are thinking now is to take care of your dry suit. Just don't do it. Be careful, and following the next suggestions, you will extend the life of your product, and you will keep yourself dry longer.
What to do to after the dive:
Rinse your dry suit with fresh water, especially if you dive in salt water. Make sure that all sand and dirt is washed away.
Pay attention particularly to the valves and zipper. After closing the zipper put a copious amount of running water over it. Dry the valves with a good blast of compressed air.
Before storing the suit, make sure it is dry inside and outside – do not dry it directly under the sun or in a place too hot or with high humidity. Choose a place where it could hang in a cool, dry, dust free area.
Lubricate your zipper after every dive - open and close it - The friction caused by the slider moving over the teeth heats the lubricant causing it to flow into the teeth (if your zipper is fraying, remove the excess with a sharp scissors and be careful on not to cut the rubber).
Put some talcum powder on the neck and wrist seals. Use unscented talcum (the scented one could contain ingredients that could ruin the rubber).
General advices
Make certain your zipper is always open all the way when putting on and off your suit.
Open the crotch strap and pull up the telescopic torso before to get out from the dry suit.
Store your dry suit with the waterproof zipper open."
I discussed the matter of Ursuit maintenance advice contradicting both YKK and Santi (link below). One of the Ursuit reps said that they needed to update their web site. Another of them said that it is OK to store the suit with the plastic zipper open.
At least one of the Ursuit reps recommends the metal zipper, but emphasizes that it is more fragile with respect to bending during storage.
---
Santi has made a serious attempt regarding maintenance advice:
https://santidiving.com/files/98/SANTI_DIVING_PROPER_MAINTENANCE_OF_YKK_AQUASEAL_ZIPPER.pdf
They are in line with YKK regarding storing the suit with the zipper closed (and the reason why this is important), but they only mention lubrication of the bottom seal (using the lubrication stick "attached" [shipped with the suit?]).
---
According to a screen dump from DUI (allegedly) in the below thread, the YKK plastic zipper should not have the closure waxed or lubricated:
new YKK plastic dry suit zipper care / maintenance
---
I also received prompt and proper response from Mike at Dive Right in Scuba. I contacted him because of this old posting from 2015:
Drysuit Zippers....Saaaaay what? Which one????
in which he said "the PROs far out weigh the CONs and plastic wins hands down".
In our correspondence he wrote:
"As for closing the Zipper, will I appreciate that they recommend to fully close the zipper, that puts extra pressure on the docking or sealing end.[?] I don't recommend that because it can have a memory from it, and fail prematurely. You can use a heat gun to help it rebound, but you're putting more pressure than needed, and for zero gain. I would close it all but that last inch, so you don't put pressure on the docking end."
and
"Yes, we do see tooth rotation occasionally, and based on the location, we can assume it's from the user and pulling properly. I wouldn't say any of what your seeing is an issue with the zipper or a manufacturing issue. It's not a major issue like they had with delamination, and it always seems to be user error."
---
This posting is getting a wee bit long. I'll add my comments in the next posting.
While there doesn't seem to have been systematic problems with the YKK plastic zipper, there most definitely is room for improvement in the advice on care and maintenance (not from YKK's side but from some manufacturers):
I'll try to sum up my findings:
According to Josh Hawthorn at YKK UK/Sweden, the YKK teeth are injection molded onto the sealing ribbon. If I understood him right, there have been successive improvements to the YKK plastic zipper. Compared to my damaged zipper (manufactured 2016), there seems to now be a different production process. Also, if I understood him right, especially in the last two years the process seems to be very good. He reported the zipper's serial number and the photo I posted first in this thread in a support ticket to their quality department, but there doesn't seem to have been general quality issues with my zipper's batch. All in all, my experience from YKK UK (when calling them) is very good. I was handled with interest and professionalism. (But they still haven't responded to the message I first sent through their web contact form...)
Josh also brought my attention to YKK's technical support web page for the Aquaseal zipper:
AQUASEAL ® | Technical Support/water-protective/support/aquaseal/
"Please see the instructions below for each zipper type.
For the W-seal (Closed-end) application,
1. Apply the lubricant to the top-seal as indicated in the diagram.
2. Apply a small amount of paraffin wax along the zipper elements.
For Single-seal or Open-end applications,
1. Apply paraffin wax along the zipper elements.
*Do not directly apply the lubricant on the zipper’s elements"
AQUASEAL ® | Technical Support/water-protective/support/aquaseal/
"Please do not fold or bend the zippers when they are stored.
Please do not store the garment/goods under the circumstances where it will be over 60°C (140°F).
Store with the zipper completely closed, taking care not to bend it. The storage in an opened position for long period will cause zipper bending.
If this occurs, slight leaks are possible."
Finally, YKK told me that the metal zipper is their preferred choice for a diving dry suit.
---
I also talked to three people at Ursuit throughout this affair, in particular Tommi Ahonen and Mattias Vendlegård in the sales organization for Sweden. They too took a serious interest in my case and answered my questions kindly and without nonsense.
As I have previously emphasized, the Ursuit Softdura is a very fine suit that I strongly recommend. However, in my opinion, Ursuit is under-performing in instructions for care and maintenance. Or perhaps they simply didn't bother to add information about the plastic zipper, so the original advice for metal zippers is what's still published. Here's the full quote from their service web page:
Servicing · Ursuit
"How to extend the life of your dry suit
You have just made a great dive, and now you are outside from the water, already thinking about the next step, taking a coffee or a drink in the next bar, or driving straight home. Last thing you are thinking now is to take care of your dry suit. Just don't do it. Be careful, and following the next suggestions, you will extend the life of your product, and you will keep yourself dry longer.
What to do to after the dive:
Rinse your dry suit with fresh water, especially if you dive in salt water. Make sure that all sand and dirt is washed away.
Pay attention particularly to the valves and zipper. After closing the zipper put a copious amount of running water over it. Dry the valves with a good blast of compressed air.
Before storing the suit, make sure it is dry inside and outside – do not dry it directly under the sun or in a place too hot or with high humidity. Choose a place where it could hang in a cool, dry, dust free area.
Lubricate your zipper after every dive - open and close it - The friction caused by the slider moving over the teeth heats the lubricant causing it to flow into the teeth (if your zipper is fraying, remove the excess with a sharp scissors and be careful on not to cut the rubber).
Put some talcum powder on the neck and wrist seals. Use unscented talcum (the scented one could contain ingredients that could ruin the rubber).
General advices
Make certain your zipper is always open all the way when putting on and off your suit.
Open the crotch strap and pull up the telescopic torso before to get out from the dry suit.
Store your dry suit with the waterproof zipper open."
I discussed the matter of Ursuit maintenance advice contradicting both YKK and Santi (link below). One of the Ursuit reps said that they needed to update their web site. Another of them said that it is OK to store the suit with the plastic zipper open.
At least one of the Ursuit reps recommends the metal zipper, but emphasizes that it is more fragile with respect to bending during storage.
---
Santi has made a serious attempt regarding maintenance advice:
https://santidiving.com/files/98/SANTI_DIVING_PROPER_MAINTENANCE_OF_YKK_AQUASEAL_ZIPPER.pdf
They are in line with YKK regarding storing the suit with the zipper closed (and the reason why this is important), but they only mention lubrication of the bottom seal (using the lubrication stick "attached" [shipped with the suit?]).
---
According to a screen dump from DUI (allegedly) in the below thread, the YKK plastic zipper should not have the closure waxed or lubricated:
new YKK plastic dry suit zipper care / maintenance
---
I also received prompt and proper response from Mike at Dive Right in Scuba. I contacted him because of this old posting from 2015:
Drysuit Zippers....Saaaaay what? Which one????
in which he said "the PROs far out weigh the CONs and plastic wins hands down".
In our correspondence he wrote:
"As for closing the Zipper, will I appreciate that they recommend to fully close the zipper, that puts extra pressure on the docking or sealing end.[?] I don't recommend that because it can have a memory from it, and fail prematurely. You can use a heat gun to help it rebound, but you're putting more pressure than needed, and for zero gain. I would close it all but that last inch, so you don't put pressure on the docking end."
and
"Yes, we do see tooth rotation occasionally, and based on the location, we can assume it's from the user and pulling properly. I wouldn't say any of what your seeing is an issue with the zipper or a manufacturing issue. It's not a major issue like they had with delamination, and it always seems to be user error."
---
This posting is getting a wee bit long. I'll add my comments in the next posting.
OP
Kimmeridgien
Registered
Regarding metal vs. plastic zipper: Now I have two identical suits with almost new YKK plastic zipper, so I'll give the care and maintenance my best shot and only later will I know if my next zipper will be metal or plastic.
---
One of the Ursuit reps recommended drying by hanging the suit by the waist loops, but that would require opening the zipper very wide, which I want to avoid. I will continue drying it on a wide hanger with the zipper 40% closed and now risk suspender fatigue. At least until I can get my hands on a hanger with a built-in fan, so I can dry the suit with the zipper fully closed.
---
I will follow the YKK storage and lubrication recommendations simply because that is the only way to really qualify for a warranty replacement, even if suit manufacturers or local repair shops recommend otherwise. I am a bit concerned about DRIS' statement that the docking/sealing end can suffer from fatigue/memory and lose it's sealing ability. It is perfectly possible that this is true. However, I also believe that storing the suit not fully closed will cause permanent deformation to the sealing ribbon.
---> Is there any way to store a plastic zipper suit that will not cause deformation to the zipper sealing ribbon and the sealing end? <---
---> What type of lubricant is YKK recommending for the top-seal? <---
Do I remember correctly that you should never use silicone on a dry suit as it is very difficult to glue the fabric at a later time?
Never use Aquasure to seal a seam that was sealed by fabric tape or PU tape. There is a big risk that the proper sealing method (tapes) will no longer work if you use Aquasure. Ursuit said they don't do repair jobs on a dry suit that has seen Aquasure.
---
Generally speaking, it is very disturbing that the industry cannot agree on one single set of instructions for care and maintenance of the same plastic zipper.
As member rick00001967 put it in this thread:
new YKK plastic dry suit zipper care / maintenance
"if my zipper gets damaged or fails prematurely, how can they blame me if i was never given proper instructions ? but you can be guaranteed it will be my fault somehow right ?"
At least under Swedish law, in case of lack of clarity, the party responsible for said lack of clarity is legally responsible. I would assume that most civilized countries have similar legislation, at least for protection of consumers.
---
Regarding my damaged zipper, I couldn't find out whether it was damaged by me or the crappy local dive shop.
I didn't notice any problem before submitting the suit for the repair job, but apparently I should not have dried the suit with the zipper 40% closed (without using the suspenders) and I should have lubricated/waxed it regularly even though it moved without need to use force. This voided whatever chance I had at a warranty replacement from YKK, even if it wasn't the root cause of the tooth rotation. The only thing I know for sure is that the zipper was in a considerably worse condition when the suit was returned to me. Judging by the incompetence displayed at the neck seal replacement and the missing sealing tape, it is highly likely that the zipper was damaged by the LDS, but good luck proving that...
In the future I will only ever let a professional repair shop touch my suit. One that is an official service agent for the manufacturer.
---
One of the Ursuit reps recommended drying by hanging the suit by the waist loops, but that would require opening the zipper very wide, which I want to avoid. I will continue drying it on a wide hanger with the zipper 40% closed and now risk suspender fatigue. At least until I can get my hands on a hanger with a built-in fan, so I can dry the suit with the zipper fully closed.
---
I will follow the YKK storage and lubrication recommendations simply because that is the only way to really qualify for a warranty replacement, even if suit manufacturers or local repair shops recommend otherwise. I am a bit concerned about DRIS' statement that the docking/sealing end can suffer from fatigue/memory and lose it's sealing ability. It is perfectly possible that this is true. However, I also believe that storing the suit not fully closed will cause permanent deformation to the sealing ribbon.
---> Is there any way to store a plastic zipper suit that will not cause deformation to the zipper sealing ribbon and the sealing end? <---
---> What type of lubricant is YKK recommending for the top-seal? <---
Do I remember correctly that you should never use silicone on a dry suit as it is very difficult to glue the fabric at a later time?
Never use Aquasure to seal a seam that was sealed by fabric tape or PU tape. There is a big risk that the proper sealing method (tapes) will no longer work if you use Aquasure. Ursuit said they don't do repair jobs on a dry suit that has seen Aquasure.
---
Generally speaking, it is very disturbing that the industry cannot agree on one single set of instructions for care and maintenance of the same plastic zipper.
As member rick00001967 put it in this thread:
new YKK plastic dry suit zipper care / maintenance
"if my zipper gets damaged or fails prematurely, how can they blame me if i was never given proper instructions ? but you can be guaranteed it will be my fault somehow right ?"
At least under Swedish law, in case of lack of clarity, the party responsible for said lack of clarity is legally responsible. I would assume that most civilized countries have similar legislation, at least for protection of consumers.
---
Regarding my damaged zipper, I couldn't find out whether it was damaged by me or the crappy local dive shop.
I didn't notice any problem before submitting the suit for the repair job, but apparently I should not have dried the suit with the zipper 40% closed (without using the suspenders) and I should have lubricated/waxed it regularly even though it moved without need to use force. This voided whatever chance I had at a warranty replacement from YKK, even if it wasn't the root cause of the tooth rotation. The only thing I know for sure is that the zipper was in a considerably worse condition when the suit was returned to me. Judging by the incompetence displayed at the neck seal replacement and the missing sealing tape, it is highly likely that the zipper was damaged by the LDS, but good luck proving that...
In the future I will only ever let a professional repair shop touch my suit. One that is an official service agent for the manufacturer.
"should not have the closure waxed or lubricated"?
I have to lubricate the plastic zipper if I want to be able to use it. The zipper, at least on my suitm was incredibly stiff.
Bald Wookie
Contributor
Regardless of the suit sold, my recommendation is always to hang it from the feet. If you have boots, this is easy, get a boot hangar and slide them into it. If you have socks, get the boot hangar and some whiffle balls (dollar store generally sells them, plastic balls with holes in them) put them into the feet and hang it upside down. More appropriate for neoprene suits so that a regular hangar doesn't crush the neoprene in the shoulders (which can make them more prone to leaks), but also great for tri/bi-lam suits so water from rinsing can drain out. Also takes pressure of the zipper as you have less weight hanging beneath it.
And again, regardless of the suit/sipper type, I always recommend storing with the zipper open. Much like the seat of a regulator, keeping the zipper closed tends to shorten the life span of the sealing surface.
Ulfhedinn
-Skill Collector-
What do you recommend with the zipper when you transport? Both closed? One closed? Both open?
Bald Wookie
Contributor
If it has an outer zipper (non-sealing one), I would zip that closed to protect the inner zipper.
But always transport with the sealing zipper open. Back zips can be rolled up nicely, front zips generally can too.
There are very few reasons to close the zipper other than when you are zipping yourself in to dive, or closing it to rinse the outside of the suit.
OP
Kimmeridgien
Registered
I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible for me to win a legal fight against the crappy local dive shop regarding the neck seal replacement in which the old one was cut off and the new one was contact-glued on top of the old one. It doesn't matter that Ursuit and their official Swedish service partner are crystal clear that you must always remove all of the old seal and glue before you put on the new seal. I have talked to a few quite skilled divers who are adamant that the only way a latex neck seal replacement can be done is by gluing on top of the old one, layer by layer. They say that otherwise the glue won't work properly. Obviously they haven't considered finding out the procedure used and recommended by the manufacturer. If you use the correct glue and procedure, it will be just like new. It really is this simple. This background noise of people who 'know' does all sorts of damage. One of the challenges is understanding who has a clue and who only 'knows'. Actually, one of the people from the manufacturers that I talked to specifically commented on misinformed local heroes.
Regarding storing a (trilaminate) dry suit with a (YKK) plastic zipper, both YKK and Santi give very clear instructions: Always store with the plastic zipper fully closed. If you keep the plastic zipper partially or fully open for an extended period of time, they say that the sealing ribbon could / will deform and leak. Keeping the plastic zipper fully closed also prevents most of the situations in which the teeth could loosen / turn due to pulling the zipper apart. In the unlikely event that the zipper manufacturer doesn't know how their product should be treated, you are still faced with the fact that the only way you can hope for a warranty replacement is if you have followed the manufacturer's recommendations.
Drying is typically done for a shorter period of time, so deformation is minimal. I have found that hanging my plastic front-zip Ursuit Softdura on a wide hanger with support by the suspenders causes near-zero stress on the plastic zipper, when drying 70% closed. Drying the suit by the boots or by the waist loops with the plastic zipper open will cause the shoulder section and arms to pull the plastic zipper apart in exactly the wrong direction. Since my plastic zipper had tooth rotation, this is the failure mode I have experienced and will avoid in the future (until I learn otherwise).
I suspect that only time will tell if storing with the plastic zipper fully closed causes the two types of failures that have been mentioned in this thread - zipper-end fatigue and sealing ribbon fatigue.
Also, I don't know how much force is necessary for causing tooth rotation. And, I don't know if my previous habit of drying the suit with the plastic zipper partially closed for many days caused sealing ribbon deformation or storing it fully closed caused zipper end and sealing ribbon fatigue. With my Santi BZ400X there is a bit of condensation on the outside of the undergarment, so was there also a tiny bit of weeping through the sealing ribbon after the good 80 dives? I don't think so, simply because I didn't notice any of this.
On the other hand, if YKK's and Santi's recommendations should turn out to be incorrect, that would be a very serious situation. Potentially very costly for them.
As I wrote in one of my summary postings earlier in this thread, I would very much appreciate the dive industry getting their act together and agreeing on one clear set of instructions. Industry-wide, per type of suit and material. My current understanding, such as it is, is that you should store metal zippers fully open and plastic zippers fully closed. The plastic zipper is less mature than metal and I am not convinced that the industry yet has the complete picture on failure modes and failure causes. If I understood the YKK representative correctly, there has been successive improvement to their plastic zipper, which means that the recently manufactured zippers should be better than older ones. It could also mean that recommendations could change due to less fragile recently manufactured plastic zippers.
Regarding storing a (trilaminate) dry suit with a (YKK) plastic zipper, both YKK and Santi give very clear instructions: Always store with the plastic zipper fully closed. If you keep the plastic zipper partially or fully open for an extended period of time, they say that the sealing ribbon could / will deform and leak. Keeping the plastic zipper fully closed also prevents most of the situations in which the teeth could loosen / turn due to pulling the zipper apart. In the unlikely event that the zipper manufacturer doesn't know how their product should be treated, you are still faced with the fact that the only way you can hope for a warranty replacement is if you have followed the manufacturer's recommendations.
Drying is typically done for a shorter period of time, so deformation is minimal. I have found that hanging my plastic front-zip Ursuit Softdura on a wide hanger with support by the suspenders causes near-zero stress on the plastic zipper, when drying 70% closed. Drying the suit by the boots or by the waist loops with the plastic zipper open will cause the shoulder section and arms to pull the plastic zipper apart in exactly the wrong direction. Since my plastic zipper had tooth rotation, this is the failure mode I have experienced and will avoid in the future (until I learn otherwise).
I suspect that only time will tell if storing with the plastic zipper fully closed causes the two types of failures that have been mentioned in this thread - zipper-end fatigue and sealing ribbon fatigue.
Also, I don't know how much force is necessary for causing tooth rotation. And, I don't know if my previous habit of drying the suit with the plastic zipper partially closed for many days caused sealing ribbon deformation or storing it fully closed caused zipper end and sealing ribbon fatigue. With my Santi BZ400X there is a bit of condensation on the outside of the undergarment, so was there also a tiny bit of weeping through the sealing ribbon after the good 80 dives? I don't think so, simply because I didn't notice any of this.
On the other hand, if YKK's and Santi's recommendations should turn out to be incorrect, that would be a very serious situation. Potentially very costly for them.
As I wrote in one of my summary postings earlier in this thread, I would very much appreciate the dive industry getting their act together and agreeing on one clear set of instructions. Industry-wide, per type of suit and material. My current understanding, such as it is, is that you should store metal zippers fully open and plastic zippers fully closed. The plastic zipper is less mature than metal and I am not convinced that the industry yet has the complete picture on failure modes and failure causes. If I understood the YKK representative correctly, there has been successive improvement to their plastic zipper, which means that the recently manufactured zippers should be better than older ones. It could also mean that recommendations could change due to less fragile recently manufactured plastic zippers.
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