History of YKK plastic dry suit zipper problems?
- Thread starter Kimmeridgien
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OP
Kimmeridgien
Registered
Hi,
I am trying to get a clear and objective view of the problems that existed (still exist?) with plastic dry suit zippers.
The reason I want to know is what seems to develop into a dispute with a dive shop whether my suit is under warranty or not and whether another dive shop broke the zipper during a repair of which not even Mr Bean would have been proud. For this reason, my interest is only in the YKK plastic zipper that I think is branded Aquaseal.
The zipper has by now been successfully replaced by a professional suit repair company, but for the discussion of who should pay for it in the end it is important for me to understand:
* Were there any systematic quality problems from late 2016 to late 2017 that have since been fixed? (It turned out that my suit bought May 2020 was manufactured September 2017, so the suit manufacturer is so far not accepting a warranty replacement under their somewhat flexible 1-2 year warranty.)
* Is it normal that the zipper elements (teeth) eventually come to 'rotate' around the 'stud' by which the element is attached to the sealing 'ribbon'? After the first failed repair (by Mr Bean diving Inc), I noticed that one element had become rotated 90 degrees and several others in a row were leaning slightly but noticeably. On a new zipper it looks and feels like the elements are fixed firmly to the sealing ribbon, but the elements on my old zipper can be rotated without excessive force. It feels like the elements were glued rather than welded with heat.
My assumption (right or wrong) is that YKK at some point realized that their way of attaching the elements to the sealing ribbon was not adequate and that they subsequently changed how the elements are attached.
--> However, this is so far only an assumption that would make sense of the information I have. <--
I have asked YKK but not yet received a response.
I figured that this forum would be home to a lot of people who could perhaps shed some light on this. Grateful for your input.
I am trying to get a clear and objective view of the problems that existed (still exist?) with plastic dry suit zippers.
The reason I want to know is what seems to develop into a dispute with a dive shop whether my suit is under warranty or not and whether another dive shop broke the zipper during a repair of which not even Mr Bean would have been proud. For this reason, my interest is only in the YKK plastic zipper that I think is branded Aquaseal.
The zipper has by now been successfully replaced by a professional suit repair company, but for the discussion of who should pay for it in the end it is important for me to understand:
* Were there any systematic quality problems from late 2016 to late 2017 that have since been fixed? (It turned out that my suit bought May 2020 was manufactured September 2017, so the suit manufacturer is so far not accepting a warranty replacement under their somewhat flexible 1-2 year warranty.)
* Is it normal that the zipper elements (teeth) eventually come to 'rotate' around the 'stud' by which the element is attached to the sealing 'ribbon'? After the first failed repair (by Mr Bean diving Inc), I noticed that one element had become rotated 90 degrees and several others in a row were leaning slightly but noticeably. On a new zipper it looks and feels like the elements are fixed firmly to the sealing ribbon, but the elements on my old zipper can be rotated without excessive force. It feels like the elements were glued rather than welded with heat.
My assumption (right or wrong) is that YKK at some point realized that their way of attaching the elements to the sealing ribbon was not adequate and that they subsequently changed how the elements are attached.
--> However, this is so far only an assumption that would make sense of the information I have. <--
I have asked YKK but not yet received a response.
I figured that this forum would be home to a lot of people who could perhaps shed some light on this. Grateful for your input.
runsongas
Contributor
issues were mainly with the early tizip version i believe, not the ykk.
explore_DMC
Contributor
I had a few teeth start rotating shortly before one popped off mid-zipper. Zipper replaced after about 150 dives. Santi/YKK.
regularly cleaned it, kept it lubed, carefully pulled it, never folded it and stored it closed on a hanger. I was/am not happy.
regularly cleaned it, kept it lubed, carefully pulled it, never folded it and stored it closed on a hanger. I was/am not happy.
OP
Kimmeridgien
Registered
Thank you both,
_DMC, would you know roughly when your Santi YKK suit was manufactured or at least when you bought it? Did you switch to a metal zipper?
Does anybody know if there is an MTBF rating in terms of dives per zipper change?
The suit in question (an Ursuit Softdura) had 80 problem-free dives by me before the zipper broke. I talked to Ursuit and was told that drying it on a hanger with the zipper somewhat halfway down was fine and that it should be stored zipper closed. I always roll up my suit and care for it properly. It's a very fine suit and in very good condition otherwise. After the zipper and neck seal replacement it is almost like new except it needs to be re-taped in the crotch.
I have no idea whether the Danish dive shop I bought it from had first sold it to another customer and received it in return before they sold it to me as new (clearance price during the covid outbreak). At least Ursuit said that they couldn't know what the suit had been through in the 2.5 years before I bought it.
_DMC, would you know roughly when your Santi YKK suit was manufactured or at least when you bought it? Did you switch to a metal zipper?
Does anybody know if there is an MTBF rating in terms of dives per zipper change?
The suit in question (an Ursuit Softdura) had 80 problem-free dives by me before the zipper broke. I talked to Ursuit and was told that drying it on a hanger with the zipper somewhat halfway down was fine and that it should be stored zipper closed. I always roll up my suit and care for it properly. It's a very fine suit and in very good condition otherwise. After the zipper and neck seal replacement it is almost like new except it needs to be re-taped in the crotch.
I have no idea whether the Danish dive shop I bought it from had first sold it to another customer and received it in return before they sold it to me as new (clearance price during the covid outbreak). At least Ursuit said that they couldn't know what the suit had been through in the 2.5 years before I bought it.
explore_DMC
Contributor
Suit was manufactured around December 2018. I took delivery of it in January 2019. I had another plastic zipper put on. The pull looks a little different…that’s all I can tell
I have one on my Otter suit. Close to 400 dives over the last 5 years. No issues at all.
Michael Perdue
Registered
I managed 80 dives out of the plastic zip that was on my santi e-motion. I wasn’t impressed. I’m Not sure whether it was a tizip or ykk.
The zipper didn’t outright fail, but started to weep along the length of the zipper leaving me a little damp. It was tolerable on a single dive, but accumulated moisture was intolerable on a multi day trip. I know that one data point doesn’t make a trend, but that was my first and last experiment with plastic zips. I replaces it with a metal zip.
The zipper didn’t outright fail, but started to weep along the length of the zipper leaving me a little damp. It was tolerable on a single dive, but accumulated moisture was intolerable on a multi day trip. I know that one data point doesn’t make a trend, but that was my first and last experiment with plastic zips. I replaces it with a metal zip.
OP
Kimmeridgien
Registered
Thank you all,
IIUC, the Santi E-motion were sold with Tizip at first and then with YKK, so I assume that you would need to know the manufacturing date to tell which type was in your suit, Michael.
In summary: In this thread so far explore_DMC reports the same kind of YKK plastic zipper failure as I am after 150 dives.
I have googled a bit and found a few mostly older threads that discuss zipper issues, and Scubaboard membe Stoo wrote the following in March 2017:
"My SANTI came with a T-zip. I began to have issues around 30 dives, and replaced it at maybe 50. They put in a YKK. It has been better, but with maybe another 80 dives on the suit, it's also failing."
"In my experience, both the T-zips and possibly the YKKs are either great or they aren't. Not much middle ground... They fail after 40 - 60 dives or they last for hundreds of dives."
In April 2017, owner of Dive Right in Scuba Mike Pedersen wrote:
"Yes, the Tizips from that era are bad, there is no doubt about it. They are good NOW, that doesn't mean a suit built 2 years ago won't have issues.
...
To all else, Plastic IS the way to go from this current point in time forward. 99% of the issues with YKK and TiZip are worked out. We haven't seen any issues of that 1% to even know what they are, but I won't give anything a 100% passing rating until more time has passed.
...
We replace and sell more zippers than anyone in the US. Trust me when I say the plastics are on point now. That doesn't mean old suits with plastics won't still have an issue or that a manufacturer doesn't have old stock of zippers. It means any NEW zipper is solid. I know this because we've never replaced one twice, and any new ones never had a delam issue."
opinions on brass vs plastic dry suit zipper
Uninventing the plastic zipper
opinions on brass vs plastic dry suit zipper
Mike wrote "issues with YKK and TiZip", which confirms that there were issues with the early plastic YKK too.
Stoo voiced this issue in several postings at least up to January 2020, but only writes that his plastic YKK gave him 80 dives without details of the failure.
So, me included, three Scubaboard members report problems with the plastic YKK at roughly the same number of dives.
I'll contact Mike Pedersen and see if he can be more specific.
IIUC, the Santi E-motion were sold with Tizip at first and then with YKK, so I assume that you would need to know the manufacturing date to tell which type was in your suit, Michael.
In summary: In this thread so far explore_DMC reports the same kind of YKK plastic zipper failure as I am after 150 dives.
I have googled a bit and found a few mostly older threads that discuss zipper issues, and Scubaboard membe Stoo wrote the following in March 2017:
"My SANTI came with a T-zip. I began to have issues around 30 dives, and replaced it at maybe 50. They put in a YKK. It has been better, but with maybe another 80 dives on the suit, it's also failing."
"In my experience, both the T-zips and possibly the YKKs are either great or they aren't. Not much middle ground... They fail after 40 - 60 dives or they last for hundreds of dives."
In April 2017, owner of Dive Right in Scuba Mike Pedersen wrote:
"Yes, the Tizips from that era are bad, there is no doubt about it. They are good NOW, that doesn't mean a suit built 2 years ago won't have issues.
...
To all else, Plastic IS the way to go from this current point in time forward. 99% of the issues with YKK and TiZip are worked out. We haven't seen any issues of that 1% to even know what they are, but I won't give anything a 100% passing rating until more time has passed.
...
We replace and sell more zippers than anyone in the US. Trust me when I say the plastics are on point now. That doesn't mean old suits with plastics won't still have an issue or that a manufacturer doesn't have old stock of zippers. It means any NEW zipper is solid. I know this because we've never replaced one twice, and any new ones never had a delam issue."
opinions on brass vs plastic dry suit zipper
Uninventing the plastic zipper
opinions on brass vs plastic dry suit zipper
Mike wrote "issues with YKK and TiZip", which confirms that there were issues with the early plastic YKK too.
Stoo voiced this issue in several postings at least up to January 2020, but only writes that his plastic YKK gave him 80 dives without details of the failure.
So, me included, three Scubaboard members report problems with the plastic YKK at roughly the same number of dives.
I'll contact Mike Pedersen and see if he can be more specific.
laikabear
Contributor
My Santi E-Lite is 4 years old and has 180 dives on it. I noticed one of those rotating teeth mid-zipper. It's not leaking from there yet, but I'm concerned. I don't know what's a reasonable expectation for zipper life.
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