Hey?! Was I rude here....?

[Miller64]

Lord knows I am going to start some,s%$#t here...I am a "newbie" and I stated before,I wouldnt even ask some one of such "experience" would they be my buddy.Yall have scared the crap out of me.I feel so inadequate.Luckly I found a place /people that will go with me and let me get used to being new, to alieve the feeling of being new and help/guide/look/see that i am doing ok.I see 2 groups,those new,,those great.Come on,give us new ones a break.I have taken rookies into fires and show them without ridicule,I was rookie once upon a time,I know they were nervous.I have a friend local with a bit of expierence ,he takes time with me,but we are friends.And another luckly,I found that thousands of good,friendly divers aren't on SB

Mr.Don asked a simple question,what would you do,what would you say.I think he did well.not rude.When I get good and get into photo,ect,I would tell a newbie the same.time ,money,,we know its expensive.But if your just gonna do a dive,would it hurt to take someone new along,help abit,teach,( I know,pay the instructor,me ,personally,when and if I get better,I will give my time and knowledge freely,,thats just me,unless I do make instructor,but off duty,give a free hand).
Mr Don,I am sure that sometime,somewhere,you have helped and guided someone and i will bet you felt good about it.I dont think you should feel bad about this certain instance,you were being honest and up front,and hope That during my diving,I meet more people like you

 

[firstdive2005]

I agree that his post should not have been reposted. This new diver asked for help in another thread. I have been asked to be a dive buddy like many others. It is an honour to me. Then I tell the new diver what he could look forward to if he dove with me. I usually hang back shooting pics so nobody comes up to see what I'm shooting or try to look at what I'm shooting while getting too close to me. Much the same as you Don. I tell them if they want to learn bouyancy without me showing them anything come follow. But I usually let the dm make the last call.
I totally dig your call on the expense to dive. I leave in Edmonton and I dont think of the 50$ tank, it's the 300$ tank. So that could make some be less receptive to share their time unless the tank is being paid for.
After I tell the new diver that there would be a good chance that I wont likely see their ooa signal as my face will be on my camera most of the time they generally look elsewhere. For me it is a thrill to help. I trust the skills that have been imparted to me so freely should be given out when the chance comes. I dont go into instructor mode as I am not one but I can show them how to spot creatures and how to be careful of the reef. It's the divers that say; Ya I'm all good, I am an experienced diver. We get to a site and at pressure we find out different. Now that is annoying. I wasnt trying to sound pompous Don, just putting it out there how I tend to meet new divers.
I also do think it's ok to say no. And not offer and explanation.

 

[Oside Jimc]

Don,
You were not rude at all. I'm wirting this from my room at the Villa Aldora after taking a close friend that came here with almost identical credentials (9 total dives in Maui) as the guy that PM'ed you. My dive trip has been a train wreck. The currents and multi-level profiles here make these dives totally different than anything Hawaii has so my buddy was totally unprepared for them. I'm coming home tomorrow irritated and just glad my friend is alive to come home with us (the first few dives were THAT bad). To do it over I'd make him hire a private divemaster for all 4 days of diving we did here so I could relax and enjoy myself.

 

[Mawg]

Don,
You were not rude at all. I'm wirting this from my room at the Villa Aldora after taking a close friend that came here with almost identical credentials (9 total dives in Maui) as the guy that PM'ed you. My dive trip has been a train wreck. The currents and multi-level profiles here make these dives totally different than anything Hawaii has so my buddy was totally unprepared for them. I'm coming home tomorrow irritated and just glad my friend is alive to come home with us (the first few dives were THAT bad). To do it over I'd make him hire a private divemaster for all 4 days of diving we did here so I could relax and enjoy myself.

Proof ....... meet Pudding.

 

[firstdive2005]

Don,
You were not rude at all. I'm wirting this from my room at the Villa Aldora after taking a close friend that came here with almost identical credentials (9 total dives in Maui) as the guy that PM'ed you. My dive trip has been a train wreck. The currents and multi-level profiles here make these dives totally different than anything Hawaii has so my buddy was totally unprepared for them. I'm coming home tomorrow irritated and just glad my friend is alive to come home with us (the first few dives were THAT bad). To do it over I'd make him hire a private divemaster for all 4 days of diving we did here so I could relax and enjoy myself.

This proves that new divers differ in skill aptitude. At 10 dives I had 0K issues diving Cozumel. My log says I had to swim upside down on dive 13 at my safety stop. Dive 12 says I felt comfortable trying to cross my arms.
What this proves to me is if I take on a new diver as a dive buddy it's a crap shoot on whether he has the ability to take on the dive site. It's pretty difficult to qualify a 9 dive diver. It would seem logical to leave him to the DM.

 

[DandyDon]

Proof ....... meet Pudding.

Hehe, you know that many people will wonder WTH on that.

Perhaps it's a sign of our increasingly fast-paced, short-attention-span society that even our old proverbs are being shortened and clipped down from the original full sayings. Word Detective and other etymology sites pointed out that the phrase originated as "the proof of the pudding is in the eating." It means that the true value or quality of something can only be judged when it's put to use. The meaning is often summed up as "results are what count."

According to Bartlett's Familiar Quotations, the phrase dates back to at least 1615 when Miguel de Cervantes published Don Quixote. In this comic novel, the phrase is stated as, "The proof of the pudding is the eating."

Word Detective and the American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms note that the phrase came into use around 1600. However, a bulletin board quotes The Dictionary of Cliches, which dates the phrase to the 14th century. The board also mentions a 1682 version from Bileau's Le Lutrin, which read, "The proof of th' pudding's seen i' the eating." A page of pudding definitions from the Oxford English Dictionary also cites the author Boileau (Bileau) as the first to use the phrase. So it seems likely that the phrase dates back to the 1600s, though the identity of its author is disputed.

These days, some people shorten the phrase to simply "proof of the pudding." Even the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language trims it down. Occasionally, it is even further abbreviated to "proof in pudding," irritating purists who argue that the shortened versions don't mean anything on their own. Let's just hope it doesn't get further reduced any time soon. "Proofpudding" just doesn't cut it.

Ya' just don't know 'til ya get there.

I got married that way once. Eh, I tried it....

 

[RonFrank]

I just don't agree with that approach (sending a diver up solo). I've seen it done, but I don't like it. But then I have seen 6 different divers medically evacuated so maybe I'm a little more touchy from those times - or maybe I worry too much.

Like one time in Coz, when I was with a motley group diving first day, I was asked to buddy with a returning diver who had been dry for years and it went ok. She actually beat me on air on the second dive and sent me up alone. I made a mental note to arrange differently later on. We went to lunch, I turned in for a nap, some of them went out for a third dive including her. When I woke from my nap, I heard that she passed out on shore after the third was was hauled off; woke up days later in Miami. That group broke up the next day tho as we started evacuating in advance of H.Dean.

Next trip, first day, 3 dives, and the group videographer(?) had a heart attack on a liveaboard - evacuated to Ft.Lauderdale. No, I don't like solo ascents. Even tho I said "I'd rather dive alone..." I really don't like anything solo in the water.

The alternatives would have been to end the dive for all six divers 25 minutes into the dive, or force one member of the three person buddy team to ascend with a stranger and 2000psi of air?

I think the best alternative would have been NOT to put the guy on our boat at all, but that was not my decision. I'm betting the newbie divers were told exactly what to expect before getting on the boat, but they had no clue how poor their sac rate was. I'm also betting that they were offered larger tanks at an upcharge, and they refused that as well.

The reality is that sending divers to the surface solo is likely practiced more than folks think. The best way to avoid that situation is to discuss the plan with folks on the boat prior to getting into the water.

 

[DandyDon]

The alternatives would have been to end the dive for all six divers 25 minutes into the dive, or force one member of the three person buddy team to ascend with a stranger and 2000psi of air?

I think the best alternative would have been NOT to put the guy on our boat at all, but that was not my decision. I'm betting the newbie divers were told exactly what to expect before getting on the boat, but they had no clue how poor their sac rate was. I'm also betting that they were offered larger tanks at an upcharge, and they refused that as well.

The reality is that sending divers to the surface solo is likely practiced more than folks think. The best way to avoid that situation is to discuss the plan with folks on the boat prior to getting into the water.

Well, I have seen buddy pairs rearranged at that point of a Coz dive - with an air hog from each of 2 pairs rebuddied for ascent and the other 2 with air left rebuddied to continue the dive. If you have only one air hog tho, it's just not a comfortable call. I know that such divers are sent up alone, it happens to me, but I don't like it. Other times I have ended my dive prematurely to ascend with a worse air hog - even after the other blew thru my 19 cf pony, but I still prefer that safety. I know that divers sometimes die in the water, but I don't want to have to explain to a survivor that the deceased was sent up alone because it's often done that way with air hogs - sorry that s/he passed out on the way. No, I descend and ascend with my buddies, even when they're slow to descend or early to ascend. If one quits me, I won't dive with him/her again.

When I dive with my home dive buddy, we have about the same air use so no problem. Othertimes, we do our best.

 

[Cali_diver]

Hey Don I am definitely a new diver, with only 20 dives in Hawaii and Tahiti. As much as it may bruise your PMs ego, it was probably the best advice that you could give him. We, as new divers, should be diving with DMs. When we were in Tahiti, some of the people we were diving with were supposed to be very experienced/advanced divers. They were idiots, endangering themselves and some of the other divers. You will never know what kind of diver someone is until you actually dive with them, and it is not worth the risk to a new diver. We need someone who makes responsible decisions and knows how to help when it is needed.

You probably shouldn't have posted his PM, but for all of us beginners out there thinking that we are ready for more than we can handle, this is a gentle reminder of how important it is to be safe regardless of the cost. So thanks!!

 

[TSandM]

I read this and wondered how I would have responded, if I had gotten a PM like that.

It IS hard, when you are taking vacation time and paying for charter dives, to consider setting yourself up for a short or frustrating or (God forbid) scary dive by diving with a new and unknown diver. And I also agree that some of the dives I did in Coz were not what I would consider beginner dives AT ALL.

On the other hand, one of the best ways for new divers to learn is to buddy up with experienced people. But they have to pick those people carefully -- not everyone WANTS to mentor new divers, and not everyone has the skills or the temperament to do it. Someone who is plugged into a viewfinder for the whole dive is not a good buddy for a new diver, and Don, I think you were honest enough to say that. (One could discuss whether someone who is plugged into a viewfinder the whole dive is a buddy for anyone . . . )

I think, if someone wrote like that to me on Coz, I'd invite them to do a little dive off the seawall at the Aldora Villa. In ten feet of water, we could assess one another and work on some buoyancy and communication skills (and there are things to see there, too!) If the result was satisfactory to both of us, I'd "sacrifice" a day on a boat. After all, I'd still get to dive, and to see things, even though the dives might be a bit shorter than planned.

But then, I remember the dives that experienced people "sacrificed" to make me the diver that I am.