HI, I am researching how to make my own scuba support system for my raceboat. I am a hobby racer and dont want to spend the $2-3K for the current system on the market. I have looked at what they are making them out of and just need some help or someone to talk to to make my own(if possible). Here is what we have: I have a enclosed capsule tunnelboat (16ft long boat) that runs speeds of around 100mph, I am strapped into this capsule and need air only on demand (if boat goes over and remains upside down), current system offers 6cu ft tank ( i have one already) and a very small 1st stage regulator, the second stages vary by makers. One has a hose on a swivel at the first stage and runs to a helmet mounted mask(a simple gentex mask from aviation), it connets directly to the mask in the middle on another swivel fitting(this allows for movement when inside the boat). The mask has the hose inlet in the center, a small push button purge/exhaust valve on the left cheek, and a surface air valve on the right cheek(this is like a plunger that closes when you go under). The other systems I have seen look like they use a Octopus set up (I know nothing about, believe it is a low-pressure system)I am wondering if someone can help me find some of these parts or like parts to put together my own system. For a example of the system I cant afford go to www.tigerperformance.com Any help would be great, thanks Tom Whitsitt
Hello everyone, looking for scuba ideas for boat
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I suppose you could start with something like this.
http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/ItemIndex_19/CategoryID_958/Context_954/CSBMFF.html
Obviously it would negate the use of a full face helmet. Are the open face helmets allowed in your class? By "on demand" do you mean they'd expect you to turn on the gas after the boat goes upside down?? Or do you turn it on at the beginning of the run? How long does the 6cf pony last the other competitors?
http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/ItemIndex_19/CategoryID_958/Context_954/CSBMFF.html
Obviously it would negate the use of a full face helmet. Are the open face helmets allowed in your class? By "on demand" do you mean they'd expect you to turn on the gas after the boat goes upside down?? Or do you turn it on at the beginning of the run? How long does the 6cf pony last the other competitors?
miketsp
Contributor
I looked at the catalog and I didn't really see where the 2-3K figure comes from.
The individual prices for regulators, hoses etc don't seem absurd for top end stuff.
I think you need to lay out some system design specs.
Is this just for near surface support (capsized boat) or are you planning for any particular depth?
Next, how long does the system have to support you, ie what is max rescue time by race safety divers?
Based on these parameters you can decide on the bottle size & mask format.
Then the bureaucratic side of the question. Is this obligatory equipment or optional? If it's obligatory and you build your own, how does the safety inspector decide if it's safe or not?
The individual prices for regulators, hoses etc don't seem absurd for top end stuff.
I think you need to lay out some system design specs.
Is this just for near surface support (capsized boat) or are you planning for any particular depth?
Next, how long does the system have to support you, ie what is max rescue time by race safety divers?
Based on these parameters you can decide on the bottle size & mask format.
Then the bureaucratic side of the question. Is this obligatory equipment or optional? If it's obligatory and you build your own, how does the safety inspector decide if it's safe or not?
O2BBubbleFree
Contributor
Hmmm....
Here are a few thoughts for you to ponder:
1. If you havent already, you might research SCBA systems, rather than SCUBA systems. This might be the easiest and cheapest route. One like this might fill the bill:
http://www.websoft-solutions.net/product_p/nr-800-ser.htm
But this wouldn't have the surface valve you mentioned, so you would probably have to fit it to another mask.
2. Used aircraft systems: They are typically pure oxygen systems, which you will probably want to avoid. However, if you were able to pick up a pilots oxygen system, you could always use it with just compressed air. From a SCUBA perspective, O2 is safe as long as you stay less than 15 deep, so that shouldnt be a concern, but I dont think I would want an oxygen system anywhere near a wrecked boat with the potential for fire... If you go this route, remember that you will have to get it refilled. I believe pilots systems and SCUBA systems have different fittings, so I don't think SCUBA shops are going to be able to fill a pilots bottle with air. Likewise O2 providers will have the right fittings, but won't have compressed air. With a little research you might be able to construct a whip that would enable SCUBA shops to fill the tank, or you could rent a SCUBA tank and use a custom whip to cross-fill your tank. Also beware that most O2 systems are lower pressure than SCUBA systems, so it would be very easy (and deadly) to overpressurize an O2 system when filling from a SCUBA system.
3. There are also some SCUBA systems that you could use to hack something together. Going this route, I personally would look into getting a valve/first stage combination like the H2Odyssey RAS or Aquavit X-Tra (very compact):
http://www.h2odyssey.com/ras.htm
http://www.aquavitinc.com/xtra.html
and replacing the hose with one of sufficient length.
Note that the H2Oddyssy has a dealer network for getting it serviced, while the Aquavit advertises rebuild kits online.
If the second stage regulator is too large, you might get just the combo first-stage and valve from them, and combine it with a small second stage regulator, like a US Divers Micra:
http://www.leisurepro.com/Catalog.aspx?op=CartDisplay&LastRecordID=270477
then fit it to a SCBA or pilots mask.
4. Do you have to have a facemask under a full-face helmet? If you can use a helmet without the chin bar, and don't need an automatic system, can you just have a SpareAir within reach?
http://www.spareair.com/product/models.htm
Of course, if you not conscious, you're screwed.
Here are some additional points to ponder:
Any system you come up with will be a life-support system, and must be inspected/serviced annually. You may be able to do this yourself, but getting parts could be a bear. I would recommend buying or putting together a system that you know you will be able to get serviced, even if you have to take different parts to different places. For example, your typical SCUBA shop will only service brands that they carry. I had a set of SCUBA regulators that I really liked, but ended up selling them because I couldnt get them serviced locally.
Components designed for SCBA or pilots are probably OK for use in shallow water, but make sure before you have to use this system! If you race over salt water, keep in mind that salt air (and, of course, salt water) is highly corrossive.
If you do get any SCUBA components, or expect to get SCUBA air fills, factor in the price of a SCUBA Open Water certification course (if you dont have one already), as you will need the card to get the components serviced and to get the tank filled with air.
For a pilots or SCBA system, find out what it takes to get it serviced, and if anyone can do it locally.
Just some thoughts on the idea... Good luck!
Here are a few thoughts for you to ponder:
1. If you havent already, you might research SCBA systems, rather than SCUBA systems. This might be the easiest and cheapest route. One like this might fill the bill:
http://www.websoft-solutions.net/product_p/nr-800-ser.htm
But this wouldn't have the surface valve you mentioned, so you would probably have to fit it to another mask.
2. Used aircraft systems: They are typically pure oxygen systems, which you will probably want to avoid. However, if you were able to pick up a pilots oxygen system, you could always use it with just compressed air. From a SCUBA perspective, O2 is safe as long as you stay less than 15 deep, so that shouldnt be a concern, but I dont think I would want an oxygen system anywhere near a wrecked boat with the potential for fire... If you go this route, remember that you will have to get it refilled. I believe pilots systems and SCUBA systems have different fittings, so I don't think SCUBA shops are going to be able to fill a pilots bottle with air. Likewise O2 providers will have the right fittings, but won't have compressed air. With a little research you might be able to construct a whip that would enable SCUBA shops to fill the tank, or you could rent a SCUBA tank and use a custom whip to cross-fill your tank. Also beware that most O2 systems are lower pressure than SCUBA systems, so it would be very easy (and deadly) to overpressurize an O2 system when filling from a SCUBA system.
3. There are also some SCUBA systems that you could use to hack something together. Going this route, I personally would look into getting a valve/first stage combination like the H2Odyssey RAS or Aquavit X-Tra (very compact):
http://www.h2odyssey.com/ras.htm
http://www.aquavitinc.com/xtra.html
and replacing the hose with one of sufficient length.
Note that the H2Oddyssy has a dealer network for getting it serviced, while the Aquavit advertises rebuild kits online.
If the second stage regulator is too large, you might get just the combo first-stage and valve from them, and combine it with a small second stage regulator, like a US Divers Micra:
http://www.leisurepro.com/Catalog.aspx?op=CartDisplay&LastRecordID=270477
then fit it to a SCBA or pilots mask.
4. Do you have to have a facemask under a full-face helmet? If you can use a helmet without the chin bar, and don't need an automatic system, can you just have a SpareAir within reach?
http://www.spareair.com/product/models.htm
Of course, if you not conscious, you're screwed.
Here are some additional points to ponder:
Any system you come up with will be a life-support system, and must be inspected/serviced annually. You may be able to do this yourself, but getting parts could be a bear. I would recommend buying or putting together a system that you know you will be able to get serviced, even if you have to take different parts to different places. For example, your typical SCUBA shop will only service brands that they carry. I had a set of SCUBA regulators that I really liked, but ended up selling them because I couldnt get them serviced locally.
Components designed for SCBA or pilots are probably OK for use in shallow water, but make sure before you have to use this system! If you race over salt water, keep in mind that salt air (and, of course, salt water) is highly corrossive.
If you do get any SCUBA components, or expect to get SCUBA air fills, factor in the price of a SCUBA Open Water certification course (if you dont have one already), as you will need the card to get the components serviced and to get the tank filled with air.
For a pilots or SCBA system, find out what it takes to get it serviced, and if anyone can do it locally.
Just some thoughts on the idea... Good luck!
You can pick up a serviceable MBU-12 or MBU-14 demand mask for around $250 and you can find a new HGU-26 dual visor helmet with a plain white shell and without a liner for around $100. You can add bayonet fittings on the helmet for the O2 mask for another $35 -$50. Liner options will run anywhere from $50 for a universal fit foam liner to $300 for a custom made liner. Or you can buy the same Gentex helmet with various liner options from a company like flight suits international for about $350-$500. They can also sell you a new MBU-12 mask, but the price is a little steep.
The problem with this arrangement is getting a traditional scuba regulator to deliver air at the proper pressure for the demand mask as the first stage intermediate pressure is way too high and the second stage is not conveniently located.
Aqualung sells a new two hose design that could be very easily adapted, but it is about $1000 US and so far is only available in Europe. If it ever gets affordable in the US, this is may find itself installed in my homebuilt aircraft to simplify the O2 system for use with a pressure demand mask.
I have considered just zip tying the hose from a small light weight and compact second stage (Dacor Viper) with the exhaust port sealed to the hose on an MBU-12 and clipping the second stage to the harness, but I have not actually tried it yet.
This approach has the potential advantage in aviation O2 applications in that you could modify the second stage to add a by pass valve to the exhaust port on the second stage for use when O2 is not needed to conserve oxygen.
In your application however, O2 is not needed and the by pass would have to automatically close itself in the event it got wet. You'd need something a lot more advanced than a ping pong ball in a cage. So most likely you are going to want a larger tank tank that will supply you continuously through the race so that everything is functional and in place in the event you decide to play U-boat commander.
The other option would be to integrate a small lightweight second stage directly into the front of the mask. This appears to be what they are doing with the commercial systems in question although they appear to be using the Gentex's filter mask for crop spraying applications with the filter ports capped. The adapter would be the key here. If you have access to a machine shop and a chunk of delrin, it would probably be do-able for not a lot of money ($250 or so for the mask and $250-$300 for the regulator.)
Alternatively you could just use a full face scuba mask although the straps would be between you and the helmet and would not be very comfortable. Also the system would be relatively heavy with much of the weight fairly far forward on the face which may cause some neck strain issues in choppy water.
The problem with this arrangement is getting a traditional scuba regulator to deliver air at the proper pressure for the demand mask as the first stage intermediate pressure is way too high and the second stage is not conveniently located.
Aqualung sells a new two hose design that could be very easily adapted, but it is about $1000 US and so far is only available in Europe. If it ever gets affordable in the US, this is may find itself installed in my homebuilt aircraft to simplify the O2 system for use with a pressure demand mask.
I have considered just zip tying the hose from a small light weight and compact second stage (Dacor Viper) with the exhaust port sealed to the hose on an MBU-12 and clipping the second stage to the harness, but I have not actually tried it yet.
This approach has the potential advantage in aviation O2 applications in that you could modify the second stage to add a by pass valve to the exhaust port on the second stage for use when O2 is not needed to conserve oxygen.
In your application however, O2 is not needed and the by pass would have to automatically close itself in the event it got wet. You'd need something a lot more advanced than a ping pong ball in a cage. So most likely you are going to want a larger tank tank that will supply you continuously through the race so that everything is functional and in place in the event you decide to play U-boat commander.
The other option would be to integrate a small lightweight second stage directly into the front of the mask. This appears to be what they are doing with the commercial systems in question although they appear to be using the Gentex's filter mask for crop spraying applications with the filter ports capped. The adapter would be the key here. If you have access to a machine shop and a chunk of delrin, it would probably be do-able for not a lot of money ($250 or so for the mask and $250-$300 for the regulator.)
Alternatively you could just use a full face scuba mask although the straps would be between you and the helmet and would not be very comfortable. Also the system would be relatively heavy with much of the weight fairly far forward on the face which may cause some neck strain issues in choppy water.
Reply to Dannobee, currently there are many different systems being used,some systems are full-time,this is when a driver has supplied air for the entire race, we run 30 lap races, about 30 minutes of air needed min., but this adds weight which is very crucial in our class, some drivers have the mask from tiger performance which has the on-demand air(this is a plunger like device on the side of the full face mask which closes when submerged), some drivers have to manual close the air inlet to 'pull air in' and some drivers say forget it and just try to make it to the surface. The pony bottles can be re-filled at each of our races each day,not sure how long they last in actual use
Reply to Miketsp, yes this is just for surface conditions, max time needed should never exceed a minute, every race and testing has certified divers in rescue boats should a boat overturn, and they are very good at getting to the boats. This equipment is not mandated, but there has been some talk of, and right now there is no inspection of air systems. Safety inspectors only inspect the boat, helmet, life jacket, not the air system, I believe this is because these systems are relatively new and not required, also with rescue crews on-site at each race this hasnt been a requirement, usually the divers are the guys who will walk thru the pits to see what people are using.
Reply to 3dent,thanks for the info, lots there, I have checked out the spare air and some drivers are using, it is a option, I thought I would look into having a mask that I can incorporate communications into and possibly not have to 'turn on' the air in the event of a crash. Just looking at options and would prefer to stick with scuba since I can get it refilled at the races and locally easier.
Reply to DA Aquamaster, thanks for the info, integrating a 2nd stage into the mask is what my idea was when I started looking. Have to look for a place that could do. Having a full face mask would be too heavy, I tried a mask from SRP last year and the weight was too much, we move around in the cockpit a lot and the bulky-ness was a pain, also, when our boats crash we decelerate very fast and this extra weight multiplies fast when going from 100 to 0, could hurt the neck (hans device is also being looked at in our boats, thats a whole different story). Anyway, the air valve issue shouldnt be too much of a problem if I can ever figure out how to make mask, there is a new one on the way from SRP, they said it works like a sponge, absorbs water and closes air inlet(just a FYI)
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